You'd struggle to get better than Stephenson's Rocket

Wafting a load of rhubarb farts into our final episode of the series is Rob Scargill, Interpretation Developer at the National Railway Museum.

We've done trains before, sure, but we haven't done interpretation now have we guys. Rob explains how everything (literally, everything) you experience in a museum is thought out - from the stories you tell about an object to the colour light you shine on it.

This episode also features a live moderate disaster, when we accidentally melted Sara's headphones. As she was wearing them.

Huge thanks to all of our guests and lovely listeners this series! If you've enjoyed listening to our silly little questions, then subscribe on all the usual podcast suspects and leave us a review on  Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

File name: Rob Scargill draft (2).mp3 

Moderator questions in Bold, Respondents in Regular text. 

KEY: Unable to decipher = (inaudible + timecode), Phonetic spelling (ph) + timecode), Missed word = (mw + timecode), Talking over each other = (talking over each other + timecode). 

Sara: Fantastic. We haven't done this sound effect before. I think this is a good intro for this episode. 

Meg: Yes, right. Coming up guys on MTV. 

Sara: It's a lot. It's exciting. 

Meg: Yes, I know. Let me do the bit. 

Sara: Okay. Off you go. 

Meg: Hello it's us. And welcome to the Museums and That podcast. Where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara, from Leeds Museums and Galleries. And we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to-, why are you laughing? 

Sara: Because you're like your own worst enemy. Your finger is just hovering around all the buttons like you want to press them to sabotage yourself. 

Meg: It's because you know when, like, someone tells you not press the button, but there's loads of buttons and you want to press them. Anyway. Asking the questions that you really want to know. 

Sara: It's the last episode of the series. 

Meg: How are we feeling about it? 

Sara: Sad. 

Meg: To celebrate the last of the series, we're literally inside my house. We've recorded from some weird places actually this series haven't we? 

Sara: We have taken advantage of the fact that we can record in places that aren't just our computer screens. 

Meg: And we've got candles. It's very relaxed. Well, we'll just relax, have a cup of tea. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Light some candles. What will happen will happen. 

Sara: Who knows where the afternoon will take us. 

Sara: Who knows. 

Meg: Go on. How's your week been? 

Sara: It's been pretty good actually. It's been kind of busy. Had a nice little evening yesterday. 

Meg: We did. 

Sara: We went for a little sojourn with our team to Bundobust. 

Meg: sojourn? 

Sara: Yes. 

Med: Brilliant. 

Sara: It wasn't a holiday, which is technically what that means. 

Meg: Shout out to Bundobust. 

Sara: We did a secret Santa. 

Meg: Oh yes. 

Meg: What did you get Sara? 

Sara: I got a beautiful pair of candles from someone who must know me very well. And a very tasteful mask of a well-known celebrity. It's Gary Oldman. 

Meg: I just laughed snorted everywhere. 

Sara: So, yes. Mask of Gary Oldman, which now has pride of place, actually it's just still in my bag. 

Meg: Brilliant. I don't know who your secret Santa was but whoever they were, god, absolutely fantastic and beautiful .

Sara: And modest and humble. 

Megr: I got some preserves. 

Sara: You did. You got exactly what you asked for. 

Meg: Yes. I specifically asked for preserves. 

Meg: By the way this secret Santa was with other people, it wasn't just me and Sara. It just so happened that I got Sara for secret Santa. 

Sara: Secret Santa is a fun one isn't because it's trying to get that balance of getting something people actually like or that's useful or silly. Like, Adam got an emoji mug that's a poo. 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: I would have been really upset if I got that. 

Meg: Yes, I know. I was like, 'Oh wow, ha ha ha really fun.' 

Sara: Absolutely not. 

Meg: But it was like this. No wait. It was like this. 

Sara: What are we doing today then? Sorry, how was your week? How was your week? 

Meg: My week's been good. What have I done? Well, to be fair, to anyone that will listen which is basically no one, this week I've been talking about the Beatles documentary, the get back documentary, which is basically what I've been doing with my entire life this week. I can't believe it. 

Sara: I know. Well, yes, and I need to watch it because you're not allowed to talk to me about it until I've watched it. 

Meg: I wonder whether we could get someone on from…

Sara: The Beatles. Do you know what would have been really smart is if we'd used that time in Liverpool to go to other places. 

Meg: Yes, we just didn't have any time did we? 

Meg: The thing is is that with travel you can go back. 

Sara:It's convenient that you talk about travel because that's the topic of today's episode. (talking over each other 03.35) Segue, segue, segue. 

Meg: I can't believe it. 

Meg: Right, so, who are we interviewing? 

Sara: Robert. 

Sara: Is it Robert? It's just Rob isn't it? 

Meg: I actually don't know if it's Robert. I think it must be Robert. Actually why must it? There are people called Rob. 

Meg: Rob Scargill, a disclaimer, is one of my close friends. 

Sara: He might dispute that but we'll see. 

Meg: He's also-, is it embarrassing to call someone one of your close friends? What if he's just like, 'We're just friends.' 

Sara: Yes. It is, yes, you are putting a bit pressure on the relationship. 

Meg: I'm going to hang myself out to dry here and say we are close friends. 

Sara: But that isn't the topic of today's podcast. Because what does he do? Where does he work? 

Meg: Rob works at the National Railway Museum (talking over each other 04.16) and he is a Interpretation Developer. Woohoo. Yay Rob. So, basically that means that Rob is in charge of how you experience the museum loosely. 

Sara: Loosely in charge. 

Meg: He's got some exciting projects on the go isn't he. 

Sara: Yes. Which we're going to ask him all about. Because he sent us some very professional documentation. Which we have read thoroughly. But we're just going to ask him about it. 

Meg: But, yes, and also he's so enthusiastic about it. 

Meg: He loves trains. 

Meg: I imagine Rob Scargill can get you enthusiastic about anything. Anyway, he's really good. 

Sara: So, all aboard for Rob Scargill's episode of Museums and That. 

Meg: The train is reversing back into the station. 

Sara: It's forgot to pick up it's important passengers like subscribe and rate us. 

Meg: Yes, we forgot to say that guys, if you could do that that would be really good thank you. 

Meg: Everyone's on board, we can go again. 

Sara: Yes. Come on. Beep beep beep beep. My headphones don't work anymore. God. What's happened here is that the candles that (talking over each other 05.22) I was just talking about (talking over each other 05.24). 

Rob Scargill: (inaudible 05.26). 

Sara: Jesus Christ. You owe me a new pair of headphones mate. 

Meg: Also. Just as a disclaimer before we do this, my stomach's making really wild noises. 

Rob Scargill: Oh, mine does every day, yes. 

Meg: Yes. So, if you hear that, I promise it's not a fart. 

Sara: It might be. 

Rob Scargill: It could be. 

Sara: Better out than in. 

Meg: I was talking about farts actually. 

Sara: Yes. You were. What did you say? 

Meg: I said that when Rob Scargill gets here you'll probably be able to smell the waft of rhubarb farts outside the door, yes. 

Rob Scargill: Oh terrible. I know, it's not good. 

Meg: Proper Yorkshireman. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, (inaudible 06.00). 

Meg: Anyway Rob, welcome. Welcome to this very professional outfit that we have here. Rob, the first thing that we ask our guests is to tell our listeners who the flip you are. 

Rob Scargill: Nice one. I am Rob Scargill. I'm an interpretation developer at the National Railway Museum in York. 

Meg: What does that mean? 

Rob Scargill: It's all the stuff that contextualises an object or an item in a collection that's on display. So, the text label, but you could a film that conceptualises an object or you could even more conceptual with it and you just have, like, and element of wit next to an object or the object that are next to each other, the lighting, or-, 

Meg: What's an element of wit? 

Rob Scargill: So, if you were to have a photograph of somebody blowing on something and then a candle (talking over each other 06.43) 

Sara: A bit like you'd blow out a candle before putting a headphone cable right near it. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. Exactly. Just like that. That juxtaposition of images might indicate something to the viewer but they've got to make that link. So, basically I develop all the stuff that goes alongside the object and try and ensure our exhibition objects are communicated clearly through information. 

Sara: It's very important isn't it, I'd say, on the basis that-, 

Meg: Rob's like, 'Yes, go on. Tell me why my job's important.' 

Sara: Because I think it's a very old fashioned thing isn't it, in museums, that you just have objects and people are supposed to know what they are. Like, that's stupid. 

Rob Scargill: The limitless potential of interpretation is pretty good because you can conceptualise an object in any way. As I say, text label is, sort of, the first thing that people think of but anything and everything that surrounds an object then makes an impression on the viewer. So, it could be, you know, if you put an artwork next to another artwork, is there a relationship that they have there or the lighting that shines on it, if it's shining down does it appear more important or if it's shining on the text label, maybe the artwork isn't as important. So, it's something like that, yes. 

Meg: That is actually so interesting because, like, you're essentially dictating how a visitor, or how you want the visitor to feel like they want them to feel. 

Rob Scargill: You can do. It depends on the audience segment that you're aiming at. So, we aim projects at different audiences depending on their wants and needs. Some audiences want to be, you know, told exactly this is how this works and they want everything explaining for them. Then some audiences want to make that connection themselves. You know, you want to give them a little bit of information and then they can work the rest out. And they can come up with their own theory on how something works or something like that. 

Meg: What's your best audience? 

Rob Scargill: Best audience without a doubt has to be the one that I belong to which is avid cultural consumer. (talking over each other 08.36). 

Meg: Have you just put yourself in that? 

Rob Scargill: No, no, no. No, I haven't. No. They've all got cool titles. All our audience segments. We've got trend awares, nostalgic heritage fans, entertainment seekers, engaged community drivers and so on and so forth. But an avid cultural consumer, they like the bands that no one else listens to. 

Sara: They saw it first. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. Exactly. Saw it first. They want to be the person that the special event that finds out something that no one else knows so that they can go and tell their mates. We do audience surveys and then find out what our visitors are into and then align them to a particular group. And there's crossover obviously. But I think people align to one more than the other. And then we also have rail enthusiasts and non-rail enthusiasts as well, which we have quite a low bar as to what indicates a rail enthusiast. So, if you're-, 

Sara: Someone who's arrived by train. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. Basically, if you know the difference between train and locomotive then we would say that you're a rail enthusiast. And not everyone does. A locomotive is the engine that pulls-, 

Sara: That was actually one of my questions. 

Rob Scargill: Yes exactly. Yes, yes, yes. 

Meg: Right, go on. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. So, a locomotive is the thing at the front of the train or the back of the train that drives the carriages and the wagons and everything else. And that's the thing that has all the power. And those are the items that are on display in the railway museum. So, if you go and see Mallard, for example, that's a locomotive. So, if you were in any element of doubt, use the term rail vehicle. It will always be that, yes. 

Meg: Wait, so, what's a train though? (talking over each other 10.00) whole bit. (TC 00:10:00) 

Rob Scargill: Yes. I believe that's the whole bit. I believe. 

Meg: The full Monty. Also, you know Mallard? 

Rob Scargill: Yes. 

Meg: I thought it's pronounced Mallard. 

Rob Scargill: No, yes, no, it's-, well-, 

Sara: What the word in general? 

Meg: Yes. No, I realise it's wrong because-, 

Sara: Have you never seen ducks before? 

Meg: Mallard. Sounds wrong. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, it does. It sounds quite southern, doesn't it? Saying that, Mallard. 

Meg: Yes, I know. 

Rob Scargill: Named after the famous (talking over each other 10.24). 

Meg: I guess I'm just more Northern than you. 

Rob Scargill: I suppose, yes. I suppose you are. 

Sara: You're the least Northern person in the group. 

Meg: Yes, I know. We should get Rob to do our voice-overs for everything. 

Meg: Also, we've got mince pies there Rob if you want one. 

Rob Scargill: I'd love one. Yes please. 

Meg: Now Rob, let me tell you about deep-filled mince pies. Basically, Morrisons do shortcrust shallow mince pies, that they pass off as their standard mince pie, but it's the deep-filled that you really want to get. And they sell that (inaudible 10.51) and today I went in and I was like, I'll get us some Christmas snacks, and anyway, deep filled, they were. 

Rob Scargill: That sounds amazing. 

Meg: Yes. Help yourself. 

Sara: Can I just eat it but just eat the pastry? I don't want the inside. 

Meg: Alright, go on. 

Sara: Do you want me to pick you one? 

Meg: Insanity. Yes. 

Sara: Which one? 

Meg: The best one please. 

Meg: What's a trend aware? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, so a trend aware somebody who is really interested in technology and the hear and now. So, at the National Railway Museum, we-, I feel like audiences can sometimes feel like we're a museum of steam heritage, like, we have a lot of steam locomotives in there, we tell a lot of stories about past engineers. But we have the ambition and we want to be the world's museum of the past, present and future of the railways. So, a trend aware is a really good audience because they're only interested in the things that are happening and now. They want to know the new technologies that are driving the railways forward. They want to know information that other people don't necessarily know, so, they can tell their friends down the pub. So, if you can stick in little pockets of information that just act as factoids, that's perfect for a trend aware. 

Sara: What's a good one then? Give us an anecdote. What can we take to the pub this evening? It's Friday after all. Give me a factoid Rob. 

Rob Scargill: Let's have a little think. Yes. Okay. So, Mallard is one of the most famous-, 

Meg: Mallard. 

Rob Scargill: Mallard is one of the most famous steam locomotives. It's very famous because it's the world's fastest steam locomotive still to date. So, it went 126 miles and hour in 1938 and the image that was used on the newspaper the day after wasn't of Mallard, it was of the-, I can't even pronounce it, the car behind which recorded how fast it went. And it was of the people that were inside that. So, the actual locomotive didn't make the front page. 

Sara: That is so harsh. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. It is harsh, isn't it? Yes. It's beautiful as well. It's a beautiful locomotive. 

Sara: The media man. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. 

Meg: Rob, what's your best locomotive? 

Rob Scargill: What's my best one? I think you'd struggle to get better then Stevenson's Rocket (ph 12.54). 

Meg: (talking over each other 12.57). 

Sara: I don't even know why that's funny. (talking over each other 13.01) The name wasn't funny, the bit where you went, You'd struggle to get better than,' was the bit that was funny. I went, 'He's really in it.' This also answers one of our other questions, is do you love trains? I think the answer is yes. 

Meg: ( talking over each other 13.16) written on your hand. Why? 

Rob Scargill: That's an amazing organisation in Bradford who are an amazing social theatre organisation. They've invited me to their Christmas do so I need to reply to them. 

Meg: And I was just like, 'What are you trying to jog in your memory with the word commonwealth hand?' 

Rob Scargill: In permanent marker as well, it's massive. 

Meg: Brilliant. Sorry, I interrupted you. Carry on. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, yes, yes. So, Stevenson's Rocket is the birth of the railways as we know it. And one of the locomotives, quote, unquote, locomotives that was competing there was actually just a horse basically. The steam power that rocket was fuelled with was just a horse. So, had that won, our museum would just be a museum of horses. Which I think is quite an interesting concept. 

Sara: That's mad isn't it? That is hilarious. What's your favourite train Meg? You don't really like trains because you have social anxiety about transport. It's not funny. 

Meg: Let's all laugh about my anxiety, shall we? ?  

Meg: I don't have a favourite train. 

Sara: Do you not? I really like those ones that are just a single carriage. I think they're hilarious. 

Rob Scargill: Ah, no, so many of them, yes. Headingley the worst for it as well. 

Sara: Awful. Awful. I just don't understand how they stay-, they keep-, they go. I don't know, they just don't look like they're physically correct. It's something about them. But also the Eurostar. 

Meg: I don't understand the Eurostar. 

Sara: You start in England and you end up in another country and that is incredible. 

Meg: You go under the sea. 

Sara: Under the sea. 

Meg: How they built that is wild as well. 

Rob Scargill: It's crazy. We've got a section of the tunnel that was built in the museum as well. We've got the Eurostar there. And the Eurostar is up there with my favourites as well. Yes. Mainly because before that you'd have to fly Paris if you wanted to go and now it takes the same amount of time but the carbon footprint is something like 90% less now. 

Sara: And you're straight into, like, Gare du Nord. Whereas, Paris airport is miles away. 

Meg: I actually once had a really traumatic experience in that train station where I got my bag stolen and I had my passport and my-, I've told this already on the podcast, and it had my train ticket in it. Anyway. I won’t tell that again. It's too traumatic for me. Eurostar, it's a good one. It seems a bit obvious though guys. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, yes, yes. 

Sara: Yes, well, you know, don't knock it. It's a good one. The issue is getting from Leeds to London. That takes days. (talking over each other 15.37) 

Meg: The journey, fine, could be shorter. 

Sara: Let's not get started on travel in the North, connections in the north. I think it's ironic that the National Railway Museum is in York and yet the connectivity is so poor. 

Meg: Wait, so, how involved are the National Railway Museum in getting things like that? 

Sara: They don't want to get involved in that. 

Meg: It's like, what's their stance on it? 

Rob Scargill: No, no, no. 

Sara: Rob's like, 'What are you asking?' (talking over each other 16.05) 

Rob Scargill: No, the National Railway Museum doesn't hold a stance on any. It remains completely and utterly neutral on that stuff. But it does want to show the viewpoints of all side, I suppose. Like the BBC in that regard. You know, like, you'd want to show both sides. 

Sara: But better because it's a museum. 

Rob Scargill: Of course. 

Meg: I want there to be a horse museum. There must be. 

Sara: There will be a horse museum. 

Rob Scargill: I'd say that York is pretty well connected. 

Sara: It is actually. It's not bad. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, it's less than two hours to London. 

Meg: Edinburgh as well. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. 

Meg: York's pretty good. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. And also as well, the railway museum in York was the first ever national museum in Britain that was outside of London. 

Sara: Do you get the train to work? 

Rob Scargill: I do. 

Meg: (talking over each other 16.46) that's a thrilling concept. 

Sara: Does it count as work? 

Rob Scargill: What, that? 

Sara: Yes, when you sit on the train. 

Rob Scargill: It's all research. Yes, yes. 

Sara: And also, do you do that thing? Because I totally would. You know when you're sat on the train and someone's, like, chatting about the train and you go, 'That's wrong.' I know secretly that that's wrong, this is actually a locomotive. 

Rob Scargill: No, but I've noticed now more and more the rail enthusiasts that hang the end of platforms at Leeds and, sort of, like, give them a little nod as if to go, 'Go on.' 

Meg: Yes. Do you follow Francis Bourgeois? 

Rob Scargill: I do. Yes. Yes. 

Meg: What a guy. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, what an absolute dude. Yes. 

Sara: I can't believe I introduced you to him and you didn't know who he was. 

Meg: He's amazing. I feel like you should do something, in fact, are you going to do something with him? 

Rob Scargill: I really feel like we should. I haven't spoken to the marketing team about this. But I imagine if they're anything like me anyway, they've got about eighteen people coming up to them going, 'Have you seen this? Have you seen this?' You should definitely get them involved. So, yes. But he's amazing because I think on the first, sort of, thing when see him, he's got his headcam on and he's, kind of, like, having a laugh about the trains and stuff but he really knows his stuff. And his passion really comes through. And that does actually make it more accessible to audiences. 

Sara: Oh definitely. Yes. (talking over each other 17.50) 

Meg: By the way, if anyone that doesn't know, there's this guy who's, like, a massive train enthusiast and he does these amazing videos and he's on Instagram as Francis Bourgeois. 

Sara: Cool guy. He just seems really sweet as well doesn't he? So. 

Meg: Has it always been trains Rob? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, it certainly hasn't. I haven't necessarily been a train person, sort of, as a kid or anything like that. I was never into railways growing up. But I feel like every subject matter has something that can pull audiences in. So, obviously the main thing would be, you know, if you were fascinated by engineering there's lots of that on display at the Railway Museum. But the things that really excite me are the people's stories. So, you've got the fact that we all set our times to Greenwich Mean Team, that's because of train timetables. Because if you had a train that was going to set off from Derby at, like, ten to twelve. 

Sara: It will never set off at that time. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, well, it won't anyway. But the people in Derby might have a different time to the people in Leeds, so, then they had to work out a proper means of telling the time. And I think that that's a really interesting story that then makes me think, 'Well, it had a real impact on the wider society and the world as we know it now. 

Sara: Imagine being in Derby and being like, 'It's five past three, we'll have a cup of tea,' and in Leeds they're like, 'It's ten to six, what are you on about, what you doing in Derbyshire?' Yes. 

Meg: Rob. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. 

Meg: I don't know where she's going with this. No, I just feel like what you're saying is really-, I feel like we've talked about this a lot, the fact that, like, with our jobs often the things that do better and the stories that I can tell the best are the ones that I know nothing about originally. And it's like, you assume that everyone at a railway museum loves trains or knows about locomotives. (talking over each other 19.26). But actually it's, like, not to your detriment that you don't know, that's the thing isn't it? 

Rob Scargill: No. And that was something that I was keen to say in my interview. You know, I was saying, 'Look, I don't declare to be a rail enthusiast or anything like that.' But they recognise that our audience isn't-, 85% of our audience aren't rail enthusiasts, they're similar to me. And we, as a museum, have to tell the story to as many people as possible, make sure that our museum is as accessible possible, yes, and cater for both audiences basically, so, yes. So, we've got to find those stories that (TC 00:20:00) engage with people and make them exciting. 

Meg: You said about a project that you're working on for trend awares. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. Yes. So. 

Meg: Tell us all. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. So, we've got a project up at the railway museum called The Innovation Platform. 

Meg: Hang on, we've got sound effects. You won't be able to hear it because you've not got your headphones have you anymore. 

Sara: I forgot all about that, but here we are. 

Meg: But wait. Hang on. Wait. Say it again. 

Rob Scargill: The Innovation Platform. Did it sound good? 

Meg: That was a round of applause. 

Rob Scargill: Oh was it. Get in, right. Yes. So, that's a project that's going to kick off in June 2022. That's when it will go live. And we're going to show off twelve different objects from the contemporary rail industry and really display just how creative the sciences are basically. If you're working in the STEM sector in engineering, in maths, anything like that, in the rail industry, you've got to use original thinking, creative problem solving to create innovative solutions that are going to, yes, take the industry forward. 

Meg: Like what? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, so, this is a two-year project that we've categorised into four different sections. So, we've got autonomous technology, so, there's autonomous solutions, things that aren't driven by humans that can think for themselves, that solve issues in the railway. There's decarbonisation. That's the second season. So, ways that the railway can lower it's carbon emissions. But more than that as well, ways that the railway can get bums off of private car seats, bums off aeroplane seats as well. We have a third season called Smart Cities, which is all about how smart technology is going to be implemented soon. That's technology that's driven by data, like, ticket-less sensors at train stations, you know, that when you go through you don't need get out your ticket and show it to a guard to get past the barriers, it will just, like, scan in your pocket and then you can jump on the train. 

Megr: Really. 

Rob Scargill: Yes. 

Sara: Do you get on that with your Covid jab? 

Rob Scargill: If only. 

Sara: If only. 

Rob Scargill: And then the fourth one is all about communities. So, this fourth season will be all about how the people that used the railways, how we can give them more creative licence to make the decisions that will impact their local station. So, yes, if headingley station is the closest one to here. If Network Rail were going to transform that station, they're going to use different technologies to get you involved in that consultation. And we're going to show them off. So, that will be pretty good. 

Sara: That's wicked. 

Meg: How are you going to show them off Rob? 

Rob Scargill: So, we're in a period of transformation at the moment at the railway museum. We've got this project called Vision 2025. 

Sara: It looks massive. 

Rob Scargill: It is absolutely huge. 

Sara: It looks slightly scary if I'm honest. 

Rob Scargill: It is very scary, yes. 

Sara: But good, in a good way. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, yes, yes. So, it's a six-year project which started in 2019, and we're going to have a gallery, we're going to have a new building called Central Hall which will unite the two sites of the railway museum. So, if you've ever been before, there's Station Hall which was a former goods station and then Great Hall which was a former locomotive shed where people maintained and stored engines. And then in the middle we're going to have this new circular, roundhouse designed visitor space where you can look around and then choose your own journey. It's almost like, I don't know if you've played Crash Bandicoot? Yes, yes. 

Meg: It's actually not the first time that Crash Bandicoot has been mentioned on this podcast. 

Rob Scargill: That's good. Yes. 

Sara: It's a classic game. 

Rob Scargill: It was. It was. So, when you have to select your level, you're in, sort of, a roundhouse area and you choose, yes, do I go down the Amazon jungle or do I go into the arctic and that's what it will be like at the railway museum, you'll choose, yes, do I go down this new futures gallery, do I go into the Great Hall in search engine that kind of stuff, so. As part of Vision 2025, we're going to have this futures gallery where we show off future technologies of the industry. And this exhibition, kind of, works as a test bed for that. And hat we want to do is we want to plonk something in the museum that, kind of, looks like it belongs in the Venice Bienalle more than in the railway museum. And it's going to be this really, sort of, visually striking concept-driven frame structure, sort of, exhibition display, which will have a star object in the centre of it, so, an item of innovation from the contemporary rail industry and then shed loads of interpretation around it that will contextualise that. And that interpretation can be anything from standard text labels to a piece of conceptual artwork that relates to it. So, it's exciting. Very, very exciting. 

Sara: It's really exciting. It's the future of how museums should be operating to my mind. Like, you know, not taking the limelight away from the objects, but really positioning it in a place where the visitors can look at it and take something away from it and have a response to it and it's guided by them. And the story just keeps growing. 

Rob Scargill: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I suppose, half of this is celebrating the object, but then more than that it's about celebrating all the context around it. So, how the people that worked on it, what backgrounds they had, the funny stories that came from developing these objects and, yes, all sorts of other things. 

Sara: It's hard isn't it, like, it's really hard to capture everything. And I think that's why, like you said, about putting it in front of a specific audience and trying to capture that audience, you need to make a decision at some point, like, 'Right, we're just not going to focus on those people. If they come and see it, great, but we don't expect them to necessarily get as much out of it.' 

Rob Scargill: Yes, that's it. I was told quite early on at my time that if we aim for three or four different audience segments, we'll fail undoubtedly. You know, you go in at one, maybe two. But, yes, if you have your efforts on one then you're much more likely to get a higher success rate. 

Meg: How does it work then Rob? Do you get to choose or, like, get a say in what kind of objects are going to be in it? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, so, one thing that I really wanted to do on this podcast was celebrate everybody that works on the project, you know everybody that's-, 

Meg: Shout out, go go go. Who's your best one? (Laughter) 

Sara: It's a team effort Meg, remember. 

Rob Scargill: Well first of all if we are doing shout outs, then it goes to Joe Manpreet and Leva (ph 25.56) who are in my team. But then on this podcast specifically I've been working with a curator Bob, what he doesn't know about the railways isn't worth knowing basically. This guy knows everything about them, and yes, we've been picking the objects together that we're going to display. So as I say there's going to be twelve objects in total over the two years. So three in each of these four seasons I talked about. And yes, Bob and I decided-, 

Meg: That was Rob slapping his thigh by the way (Laughter). 

Rob Scargill: Bob and I decided who we'd approach and asked them whether or not we could display their object, and then we're also coming up with the different stories that we want to tell from those, and how we want to communicate those. And it's a really collaborative effort as well, we've got fortnightly content team meetings, where we just bang heads together and work out the best way to do that. 

Meg: Are you allowed to give us a sneak preview of what one of the objects are going to be? 

Rob Scargill: I am not unfortunately because the contracts haven't been agreed yet. 

Sara: Sign an NDA 

Rob Scargill: Yes, yes (Laughter). 

Moeg: Can you do charades, or pictionary? 

Sara: Draw an interpretation of the object. This is an audio format so no one would need to know. 

Meg: We'll get Rob to tell us and then we'll tell you in code guys. 

Sarar: We'll never tell anyone because we won't. 

Meg: Or just, you know, go and see it. But what's your favourite story that you've ever told? 

Sara: Do you want to be more specific on that one? 

Meg: Of something that you've worked on. What's been the thing that's stood out to you as you've really enjoyed working on it and telling that story? 

Sara: Curveball question. 

Meg: Yes, that is a curveball question. 

Sara: Do you have an answer to it, Meg? 

Meg: Of a story that I've told? 

Sara: Shoes on the other bloody foot. 

Rob Scargill: So I've got quite a good story that we revealed as part of our on site audio trail, which is on site at the moment, which I helped write. 

Meg: Do you speak on it? 

Rob Scargill: No I don't speak on it, so-, 

Meg: Why? They're missing a trick Rob. 

Rob Scargill: I don't think so, I don't think so, but actually we got the guy who does, you know on the BBC before Eastenders starts, it'll be 'And now, dirty Dan is doing this' 

Sara: Really? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, we got this really, really nice Cumbrian guy, so (talking over each other 28.09) 

Sara: It is very good, I have listened. 

Meg: Dirty Dan hasn't been on Eastenders for like 15 years Rob. 

Rob Scargill: (Laughter) I nearly said Desperate Dan. 

Meg: Trend awares. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, trend awares. So when we were writing this audio trail, sort of unearthed a few stories. The audio trail on site is about the history of our building and its rail history, so our site we've been a museum since 1975 but it's a working railway site that was built in 1878. There was an air raid during the Second World War. I think it was 1942. And Germans came over, they bombed the city of York, in retaliation for the British bombing a historical German (talking over each other 28.49). Yes, exactly. 

Meg: Bloody war man. 

Rob Scargill: It's not good. 

Megr: It's also not funny. Apologies. 

Rob Scargill: There's a bit in the museum where you're standing in a spot where you can see this photograph as well which is on the audio trial plinth. And it describes what's gone, what went on at the time. But you're in a spot that was complete rubble, and there's been rebuilds since. And it's a spot where a locomotive that we had stored there is just completely destroyed because a bomb dropped directly on it. So then through the audio trail we tell the story of, like if you were here during the Second World War, yes you'd be helping with the recovery of this, you'd be, yes having to get rid of all the debris. And you can literally see the photo of this image of destruction that happened there, and then people go 'I can't believe that that's the same site'. So, that's quite an interesting story. 

Moeg: No, that's a really interesting story. 

Meg: I feel like my eyes were glazing over then, but I was just thinking about it, and I was like 'Wow, that would be amazing'. 

Sara: I don't know whether Meg was thinking as well that we've got to do an audio tour for Kirkstall Abbey (ph 29.48), it's going to be low brow. But we're trying, for me the hard thing is picking where you start and where you finish. Like what stories do you pick up on. And it's nice where you said you've taken something (TC 00:30:00) quite specific but it gives it a context and makes it relatable to people, because they can see and hear, and experience it. And it's trying to get all of those things together. 

Rob Scargill: We had a really interesting one doing the audio trail during Covid times because we couldn't hand out headphones. Like I started working at the railway museum in November 2020, and it went live when the museum reopened, which I think was May. We'd just come out of a full lockdown, we couldn't hand any headphones out. But what we did have on our side was people were getting used to using QR codes again. Yes we had quite a lot of research on that, so we've just banged a load of QR codes on the panels and yes, it's working well. 

Meg: I remember that was a thing before lockdown. I think we'd tried QR codes, just linking through to webpages and more information, like static information. But everyone was sort of like 'No, it's quite inaccessible thing to use, because people don't really know what they are'. And Covid's kind of helped with the accessibility of them, because people are using them. They're having to use them for checking in and whatever. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, it definitely has. There's some massive black and white sort of lines in accessibility with QR codes, if you don't have smartphone technology, the audio trail isn't available for you. 

Meg: This is the thing with places especially that are free, like free entry. You're putting a barrier, people that want to access something for free. 

Rob Scargill: The audio trail was put in to test QR codes basically, and see whether or not people want to use them. So that in the future we can potentially use QR codes in permanent interpretations. So if you wanted more depth to a story, then you'd have, maybe you'd have your 100 word text panel, and next to that you'd have a QR code where you could listen to some extra bit of detail, if you're that kind of audience that wants that. 

Meg: You've done an audio guide. What's your favourite piece of interpretation to do? Are you just like 'Oh yes, today I'm doing a text panel'? 

Rob Scargill: Well I'm really, really enjoying working on the innovation platform, because we can really push the boat out on what it is that we use to interpret objects. And we're thinking of commissioning comic book artists to create like a comic book sort of panel of how it works, and integrate that into the design. Because if we were to do that then it shows like a step process of how the object works, in a much clearer way than you know text would or somebody talking through it. So it totally depends on the project, I suppose what's right for that message that you want to send out. But my first port of call would always be to kind of take a step back and not say 'Oh we're doing it this way'. It would be more taking a step back and going right, lets have a fresh slate, how are we going to communicate this clearly. 

Sara: I think it's really trying to remember what are the people going to want to see, because it's very easy to fall back on the old text panel. 

Meg: In a few of the things that you sent through. I was reading through some of the documents that you sent through about the work you're doing at the minute. And one of the things that I noticed that you mentioned colours quite a lot, like colour lights. It was like 'We could have red lighting for this one'. Tell me about that, because I was like, what does red make people feel? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, these future technologies we're going to display as part of the innovation platform, a lot of them have sci-fi links, and they-, 

Meg: Wait, we have a sci-fi one (music snippet 33.21-33.27). Okay, right say it again. 

Rob Scargill: (Laughter). So a lot of these things in the innovation platform have sci-fi links (music snippet 33.32) Yes. And it's because the railway, like any industry, has always been progressing, you know. In its 200 year history it's always been looking for what's the thing that's going to move the industry forward. And in the past, innovations of the future, that have been imagined, have been kind of blown out of proportion sometimes and used to fuel stories. 

Sara: I'm sorry, Snowpiercer's (ph 33.57) based on a real story isn't it? Train that goes round and round the world, perpetual motion machine. 

Rob Scargill: (Laughter) So Bob the curator I was talking about, he found-, 

Meg: Slapped his thigh again. I can hear it, he's coming. (Laughter) 

Rob Scargill: Is he coming? He found us a really good story, written in the 19th century, when locomotives were the item of the future, the technology of the future. About this locomotive that travelled through space and time, and it was set in the year 3000 or something like that, and yes, they went travelling through time on a steam locomotive. So anyway, yes-, 

Meg: Could happen. 

Sara: I thought they lived underwater though in the year 3000. 

Meg: Jurassic Park could happen. 

Sara: No one got the McFly reference. 

Sarar: Oh God, I'm so disappointed. 

Rob Scargill: (Laughter) Oh yes. No it's Busted, it's Busted. 

Moderator: bleep. 

Meg: Embarrassing. 

Sara: How embarrassing. 

Rob Scargill: So technologies of the future will always have a sci-fi link, like in the 60s when the space race was happening. Bowie wrote a load of songs about space travel, and that was kind of in the cultural zeitgeist at the time. And these technologies now have sci-fi links as well, I suppose. Yes, you can create fiction about what it is that you imagine could happen off the back of these technologies if they were to be extremely successful. It's hard to describe when I can't reveal what it is that we're, what we're going to be displaying. But in my head it sounds amazing (Laughter). 

Meg: If only everyone could see inside your head. 

Meg: But wait Rob, I want to know about colours. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, so for example if you were to have a backlit red display, it could reference say a clip from a sci-fi film. Say a Ridley Scott film for example. And yes you could reference that so that people without being told 'Oh this is a sci-fi link'. 

Sara: I'm really enjoying you trying to explain colour theory to Meg. 

Rob Scargill: Yes (Laughter). 

Sara: Something we learn at GCSE art, but go on. 

Rob Scargill: If I sound like (beep 35.56). 

Meg: No you don't. I think I sound like the (beep 36.00). 

Megr: Brilliant. So often as a visitor you maybe take for granted the fact that things are so intensely thought out at museums and about your experience. I went to the National Museum of Scotland a few months back, and went to the Galloway Hoard exhibition. And I went in and it was very, very dark. Like I couldn't really see the edges of the room and the focus was all completely on the cases that were like very brightly lit. And I think before I worked in museums, I'd have been like 'Alright, yes, fine, it's an exhibition'. Whereas now I'm like right they're just wanting to put all the emphasis completely on those objects, and they're quite small, so that's just what that's about. But also I was just like 'Oh my God I can't see the edges of the room, I'm so claustrophobic, what am I going to do'. (Laughter) And my deep fear is accidentally touching someone. 

Sara: A stranger. 

Meg: Yes. I didn't, it was fine, don't worry. Literally my question then was what's the deal with colour and light? What would right, if you could build a museum from scratch. Firstly, what would it be? 

Rob Scargill: It would probably be something to do with football culture I think. The social power of football I suppose. 

Meg: Oh that's good. And what's your like dream interpretation scheme? Whenever a curator, or whenever there's an exhibition or project that you're working on, is there something that you're like, 'Yes, this is the one that I'm going to do this at'. 

Rob Scargill: I used to be a designer, and I studied graphic design at university. And when I went to uni originally I thought graphic design was all typographic layouts, how you design them, that kind of thing. And then in my first two weeks I realised it's actually a way of thinking, it's to recognise problems as you see them and come up with elaborative solutions to those. And with interpretation that's how I like to treat it. So I suppose my perfect interpretation would be a hard brief. You know if I was asked to communicate something really complex in its subject matter to an audience, that, we have an audience segment called time spot poor aspirers. They might not have the time to see everything in the museum and I've got to communicate quite a complex idea quite succinctly. That's a really fun brief, because then you've got your limitations and then you go, right, what is it that I can do from that, and it kind of boils from there. 

Sara: Your boss at work is just like 'Banging, just give Rob all of the hard things to do from now on'. 

Rob Scargill: I'd honestly much rather do that, because that's the exciting bit of the job and then you produce the work that needs to be done, but it's the conceptual thinking, I think, that makes this job so enjoyable. 

Meg: Rob, I didn't pre-prep you for this because I assumed that you'd know these questions were coming. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, I do. 

Meg: Okay, so the first question we have for you is, what has been your favourite day at work? 

Rob Scargill: When I went to Rail Live for the day, that was earlier this year, it was-, 

Meg: To where? 

Rob Scargill: Rail Live. So it's, I didn't know about it-, 

Meg: Rail Lives? 

Rob Scargill: Rail Live. 

Sara: Rail Live? 

Rob Scargill: Rail. Dot. Live. (Laughter) 

Meg: Surely every rail is live? 

Sara: (Laughter) That isn't what it is. 

Meg: (Laughter) What I'm going to do is stop interrupting you, and let you just say (ph 39.11) 

Rob Scargill: It's this big exhibition that takes place in the middle of summer, in the midlands, and basically all the rail industry comes together and shows off their equipment. It's a bit of a networking thing you know, where you can meet other people in the industry. But it's a place to show off the technology that they've got to people like Network Rail, and then they choose whether or not they want to take that on. But I went with Anthony and Bob, the two curators I'm working with, and it was maybe like 32 degrees, and we just went round. Looking at this new technology, talking to loads of people, with ice cream, and I thought, yes, this isn't bad, I'll take this. 

Meg: Sweet. What kind of ice cream? 

Rob Scargill: Just vanilla. It's poor isn't it, just vanilla. 

Moderator: Classic. 

Rob Scargill: Classic, yes. 

Meg: Did they have any other sort of snacks there? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, they did. They had-, 

Sara: That's not the point (Laughter). 

Meg: Yes it is. (TC 00:40:00) I might want to go next year. 

Sara: Please tell me they brought them around on the little, really skinny trolley. 

Rob Scargill: No, no they didn't. Yes, they should do. 

Meg: That would be funny. 

Rob Scargill: No they just had food cars, but they had all the classics. They had baguettes, they had ice cream, they had coffee. 

Sara: (Laughter) Everything you could need for your daily sustenance. Okay, final question. It's a two fold one. From everything that we've talked about today. What would be a little take away snippet for our listeners, if you don't mind? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, I suppose it would be, when you're going in a museum or gallery and you're looking around. Every decision has been thought of as to how an object is displayed or a collection item is displayed. So if, like you were saying, a room is dark and that's on purpose. 

Sara: Unless you've got no funding. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, potentially (Laughter). And that will impact the way that you look at it, and it's just an interesting idea I suppose to think that all those things have been thought of. So when you're looking around, you're experiencing and you think, 'I wish I was told more about that', there's potential that different audiences were aimed at. Or if you find something that you really feel excites you, that will be because you fall into an audience segment that we've aimed at, and I think that's quite interesting. 

Meg: Yes, there's a lot of psychology involved isn't there? 

Meg: You're like rail Freud. 

Sara: I don't know that that's a compliment. You need to pipe down missus. 

Rob Scargill: Which Freud? 

Meg: Yes. Has one deep filled mince pie and then she just sort of gets really rowdy in the corner. Talking of food, what's your favourite takeaway? 

Rob Scargill: So my favourite takeaway is Muncher which is in Headingley. It's this sandwich shop on North Lane, and it's amazing. The guy knows my order, it's veggie sausage, egg and mushroom. We have a 15 minute chat about Leeds United whenever we go in. We don't know each other's names, but I know his whole life and he knows mine, and every Saturday morning I get that. 

Meg: Is that why you go with Lauren? And then she gets annoyed because he doesn't ever talk to her. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, a bit. So he-, 

Sara: You can't put that in the podcast, it's not fair. 

Meg: No, I think I'm pretty sure that's the story. She said, she's just like, 'Rob just talks to him all the time'. 

Rob Scargill: Yes, she goes in and then orders my order, and so the veggie sausage, egg and mushroom, he'll then go, 'Oh is it for Leeds United fan boyfriend?' And she'll be like 'Yes'. 

Sara: Brilliant. And is it now a thing where you can't find out each other's names because the magic will die? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, I think so. I mean occasionally when I've paid on card, you know, it comes up with a name. But I don't know if that's his name or somebody else that owns it. But, I don't know, I want to keep the magic there. 

Meg: Munch? 

Rob Scargill: It's a classic. 

Meg: What the hell? 

Rob Scargill: Well worth going. 

Meg: Also feels like that's quite a breakfast thing, isn't it? 

Rob Scargill: Yes it is, but-, 

Sara: That's alright. 

Meg: Oh you're allowed it, absolutely, but, I just (mw 42.43). 

Rob Scargill: It's part of my routine. Every Saturday morning, occasionally on a Sunday morning as well if I'm feeling like it, then (talking over each other 42.51) 

Sara: Yes, you're feeling like it. That was very diplomatic, well done. 

Meg: In my head you're going up Kirkstall Lane, in like one of those little trains. You know when you were a kid and you got one of those pull along trains, and Rob and Lauren are just sitting in one (talking over each other 43.03) 

Sara: What, a grown man? And Lauren's pulling him along? Up that hill? 

Meg: In all the grass. 

Rob Scargill: Actually at the rail museum we have a road train, that takes you to the minster (ph 43.11), and you can go on that. And basically it's a car that looks like a locomotive, and it's got (talking over each other 43.16) 

Sara: Can we come? Can we come and have a day out? 

Rob Scargill: Yes, absolutely. Please do. 

Meg: Call it work. Which it is. I forget that sometimes, (inaudible 43.23), like wow, this is work. We're eating mince pies. 

Sara: I'm not. 

Meg: You haven't had one yet? 

Sara: No, because he's very professional and he's waiting, because he's worried that he's going to have a mouthful and you're going to ask him a question. 

Meg: Brilliant. 

Meg: That's us. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 

Sara: Thank you. 

Rob Scargill: No, no, thank you so much for having me. 

Sara: You've been a joy as the last guest, a curveball. 

Rob Scargill: I'll take that. 

Meg: Told you he was good. 

Sara: Yes, I had no doubt about it. 

Meg: If I was the National Railway Museum, and I'm not, I would be listening back to that thinking, 'Wow, we are such a lucky little museum, except we're not little'. 

Sara: A lucky, slightly large museum. What was your best learn? 

Meg: Colours. 

Sara: Colour theory? 

Meg: Yes, I liked that one. I think, just sort of like everything that came out of his mouth. It was good, wasn't it. It's really nice to talk to someone who, like we don't have a similar, we don't have that role at these museums and galleries. And there is a lot of kind of crossover I think between conversations we've had, and audience development and interpretation. I really like that they've made up their own names for their audiences. 

Sara: No mean feat. It is interesting, definitely. 

Meg: Also, there were quite a lot of swears in that episode. Sorry guys. 

Sara: We're (inaudible 44.32) time, haven't we. 

Meg: We've all had a time. Had bloody Covid. Actually, sorry, what was your best bit? 

Sara: Yes, it's really hard to pinpoint anything, because it was really fascinating. I didn't know anything about trains other than having been on some. 

Meg: Actually, although to be fair. Shout out to John McGoldrich (ph 44.47), who did teach us a bit about trains. 

Sara: Oh yes, yes. I know about it from our collections point of view, but you know, National Rail Museum is another thing altogether isn't it. And looking forward, and their projects that they have coming up, just sound really innovative. And quite exciting, and something I would definitely like to get involved with. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how all of that works out and going and seeing them in the real lives. 

Meg: Anyway, so shall we reflect a little, Sara, on the series? 

Sara: It's been a very diverse series in terms of the stuff that we've talked about, hasn't it? 

Meg: Finally got shipwrecks in there. 

Sara: Finally got shipwrecks. 

Meg: Shout out to Lizzy for giving in. Shout out to Ian. 

Sara: I very much enjoyed talking about hip hop and making it about museums. That was fun. 

Meg: I loved talking to David Hopes (ph 45.30), finding out about the sauces, that was really good. Carmen, brilliant. Catherine, brilliant. 

Sara: I wonder if he's gone into sauces yet, on the back of that. 

Meg: And we did videos. 

Sara: Yes, we did videos. That was a new 3D element. 

Meg: What was your best video that we did? 

Sara: I don't know, they've all had their own quirks I think. I did really enjoy the first one because we were outside a museum. It was actually a really lovely day, and we didn't have any idea what we were doing, and we took a lot of takes to get there. If no one had noticed. 

Meg: Yes, the style that we do them in is literally purely accidental, because we were just really bad. 

Sara: Put it together as best we can. 

Meg: Overall, out of 10, I would give us. For this series, 10 out of 10. 

Sara: And if you would give us 10 out of 10, that would go someway towards helping our ratings online. 

Meg: And our credibility. If you could do that, that would be really wonderful. And thank you to everyone who's done that so far, that's really wonderful and we love you. And congratulations on being excellent. Anyway, transcripts are on the website, and if you want to get in touch with us, I'm @MuseumMeg on Twitter. Sara? 

Sara: @saralmerritt. 

Meg: And @LeedsMuseums. Please if you're not going to leave us a review, can you message us just to say that we're brilliant. That would be really nice. And thanks to Al Finney (ph 46.48), who did our cover artwork and who also is Rob's best friend. And then thank you to Timmy Bentley who did our theme music for us. Also, thanks to you. 

Sara: Listeners. 

Meg: The listener, for listening. We really appreciate it, and we might be back. 

Sara: Who knows. 

Meg: Are we going to be back for another series do you reckon? 

Sara: I'd like to be. 

Meg: We've booked two people in so far, and they're both really good. And we're being really proactive in doing it now. 

Sara: Can you imagine. (sound snippet 47.15) 

Meg: Claps. 

Sara: Was that claps? 

Meg: Sara can't listen because I (mw 47.18) her headphones. Get some new headphones. 

Sara: You didn't, to be fair. It was a joint effort. 

Meg: Right everyone, hope you've had a lovely Christmas and have a lovely little 2022. Thank you for listening. 

Sara: We'll see you soon, in your ears. Bye. 

Meg: Bye.