I like my exotic fruits

Our guest this week is Visitor Assistant and harbinger of exotic fruits Carmen Webbe.

Carmen talks to Meg and Sara about black artists and subjects on display at Leeds Art Gallery, her opinion on works and exhibitions and, most importantly, her experience as a black woman working in a public facing role at an art gallery.

Links to things talked about if you'd like to find out more:

Five,  by Lubaina Himid (which we say is in our collection - it isn't! Silly us. It's on long loan to Leeds Art Gallery).

Melita, by Ronald Ossory Dunlop

Visit Ashley Holmes' website

There's a case study on the MyLearning website about Retribution by Edward Armitage

Listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.

Transcript

File name: Carmen draft.mp3 

Moderator questions in Bold, Respondents in Regular text. 

KEY: Unable to decipher = (inaudible + timecode), Phonetic spelling (ph) + timecode), Missed word = (mw + timecode), Talking over each other = (talking over each other + timecode). 

Sara: Does this sound fine? 

Meg: It sounds amazing but I wish that it was Carmen talking to me, not you. 

Sara: Right. On that note. 

Meg: Fantastic. Hello, it's us and welcome to the Museums n'that podcast, where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. 

We're your hosts, Meg and Sara, from Leeds Museums and Galleries and we get to know the people behind the objects, by asking them the questions that you really want to know. 

Sara: Good? 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: You like your little croissant, marmalade dip? 

Meg: Right. I was like, 'I'm hungry.' 

Sara: I knew you would be. 

Meg: And Sara went and got some breakfast. Anyway, it's a croissant and, you know those little individual pots of preserves? Anyway, enough about jams. How are you? 

Sara: I went to Wales. Yesterday was my first day back and it was, like. 

Meg: I can tell it was your first day back because you don't understand how to use a microphone anymore. What are you doing? 

Sara: I don't know. I need to just move it so I'm more comfortable. Like that. 

Meg: Yes, pathetic. What do you think is the most annoying thing about you? 

Sara: About me? My voice. 

Meg: Do you think? 

Sara: About you? Being a moaney-, whoops. 

Meg: I think my worst trait is that every time I get drunk I start talking to people about shipwrecks and I don't really know anything about them. 

Sara: About shipwrecks? 

Meg: Yes. Every time I did it the other day. 

Sara: You've got a slightly annoying trait in that you think you need to be friends with everybody but you don't. 

Meg: Libra. 

Sara: You just don't. Where as I have a strict policy of, 'I've got enough.' 

Meg: Brilliant. Now I have to-, I just need. 

Sara: People will inevitably drop off but I'm not adding anymore, I can't be bothered. 

Meg: I need validation literally all the time. Anyway, who have we got on this week? 

Sara: We have Carmen Webb. She's excellent. She's a visitor assistant at Leeds Art Gallery. She's just really good. 

Meg: I've literally been wanting to get Carmen on for such a long time. So, me and Sara used to work-, our desk was at the Art Gallery and we used to see Carmen literally all the time, didn't we? 

Sara: Sad times. Yes, she's just so cool. Like, she's super chill about everything. 

Meg: I have this-, specifically with art galleries and I probably will bang on about this in this episode, so, so sorry in advance. It takes me, like, maybe two or three gos of an object label or a text panel to really understand what I'm reading, because I find art really hard. So whenever I'm at the art gallery and we've got a new work on display or a new exhibition, I just make a beeline for Carmen and I'm like, 'Go on, tell me all the good bits.' 

Sara: Yes. Yes, she just makes it really accessible which is lovely. 

Meg: Also she used to bring me and Sara fruits. 

Sara: Oh yes, crazy fruits. 

Meg: She used to go to the market-, literally not crazy fruits whatsoever, it's just that we're extremely uneducated in the realm of fruits. She used to, like, get amazing fruit-, what was that one that was like an apple. It was like-, you just, like, picked little bits out of it? 

Sara: Let's ask her about the crazy apple. 

Meg: Yes, we'll ask her what the apple's called. Really addressing the hard hitting issues and actually, we are, because we do want to talk to her about her experience as a black female visitor assistant and I think she's got some really important lovely things to say about black artists. 

Sara: It's an interesting one this, because I really like art galleries generally and they were, kind of, my introduction into this world. Whereas you are very much hard out museums, first and foremost. 

Meg: Shout out to museums, guys, honestly. 

Sara: And then art galleries are a secondary option for you. So it's an interesting one, isn't it? 

Meg: Yes, it just takes me a lot-, if literally, you show me a piece of rock in a museum, I will literally think it's amazing no matter what. Like, I'll just think everything in a museum is amazing. Whereas at a gallery, I just-, I need a little bit more convincing with art, I think. 

Sara: Yes, it's interesting because I don't know at what point but I think I was going around Tate Modern with my partner and he was just, like, 'Doesn't matter if you don't understand it, just, do you like it? Do you not like it?' And yes, it's like, 'Okay.' And now I think about it differently, I just-, but that's a very privileged point of view, I think, as well. We'll probably talk about that. 

Meg: By the way. 

Sara: Here we go. 

Meg: I'm wearing a vest. 

Sara: I know you are. Your arms are very out, is that because-, is that why you fake tanned? 

Meg: No. No, no, no. No, do you know why I fake tanned, because I was like, 'I'm sick and tired of feeling repulsed by myself.' 

Sara: By my own skin? 

Meg: I need to fake tan again, just absolutely love it. No, I'm wearing two vests. Look. 

Sara: Oh, well you have to, it's very cold. 

Meg: You know when you're a kid and you wear a vest? 

Sara: Yes, I've got a vest on underneath these polo neck. 

Meg: Have you? 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: You still wear them? 

Sara: Yes, yes. 

Meg: I never-, I thought. Like, today, I thought, 'Wow, this is so funny that I'm wearing one.' 

Sara: No, always. Like, at this time of year, extra layers. 

Meg: You always wear a vest? 

Sara: Yes, got to keep that core warm. 

Meg: Guys, do get in touch if you too wear vests. 

Sara: Core? I don't have a core. I went back to the gym for the first time last night, god, I thought I was going to be sick. 

Meg: Brilliant, on that note. I wonder if Carmen wears vests? 

Sara: She's a smart woman, I reckon so. 

Meg: I will ask. Okay, everyone. Here's Carmen Webb's episode of Museums n'that. Enjoy. 

Sara: Yay. Here she is. 

Meg: She's here. Carmen, how are you doing? 

Carmen: I'm good, I'm good. 

Meg: We were just talking, Carmen, about that time? Do you remember when you brought in fruits, you used to bring in fruits? 

Carmen: Oh right, okay, yes. I like my exotic fruits. 

Meg: You love exotic fruits. What was that one that we had that was like? 

Sara: You said it was like an apple. 

Carmen: Well, we had custard apple. 

Meg: Oh, custard apple. 

Carmen: Apple, which is yes-, because my parents are from the Caribbean. They're from Saint Kitts and and Nevis, my background was in furniture design. Not necessarily making furniture design but that was the course that I studied, because-, I think I've always been quite practical anyway. So, if something's not working, give me a call. 

Meg: What was your best piece of furniture, Carmen? Like, what do you love? 

Sara: Chair, table? 

Carmen: Put me on the spot. 

Meg: Yes. Like, cabinet? 

Carmen: I've never actually-, I mean, the truth of the matter is I did furniture design as a course but I didn't actually go on and make furniture. Like, I just love furniture-, I mean, the Bauhaus period, the Wassily chair, Le Corbusier. I just love furniture. 

Meg: Right. So, Carmen, where did the art come from? How did you come to the art gallery? 

Carmen: Art gallery? Okay, so I was doing some work, actually, I was temping. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, I was temping but what they did is that you literally went onto their books and you worked when you wanted to work and that, kind of, fitted in with looking after my mum. And then one of those jobs that came out of that was initially working for the libraries in the City Council and then after that, working in the Art Gallery shop. So, I came into the Art Gallery shop in 2011 and in 2014 I went to Abbey House, Kirkstall Abbey, and worked there as a visitor assistant. So that was kind of my main introduction into working as a visitor assistant but then in 2017, the opportunity came along for me to apply for a visitor assistant job at Leeds Art Gallery, so. That's my current position and I must admit, it was beautiful, because I almost feel like now that I'm at the Art Gallery again, it's almost, like, a full circle thing. Like, my life started or my interest started in art, being back in the gallery is just great. I think I've realised in my life and my career that I love working with people. 

Meg: What's your favourite part of the job? 

Carmen: It has to be meeting people, to be fair. 

Sara: In terms of here, what interests you? What do you like, from artworks to spaces, what bits do you like? 

Carmen: I think, in terms of spaces, let me think, now. Let me have a bit of a think here. There's some things behind the scenes that I think people don't see. When you go downstairs it's completely different. Front of house is always different, front of house is always where everything looks glossy, it's like the magazine cover. You know, you're selling yourself. The basement here, is like, we have quite a bit-, there's quite a bit of artwork down there as well. You know, I mean artwork that's being stored and I like old buildings. Maybe again, it goes back to my age but I like old buildings. Especially like the Art Gallery because they've got character. They've got character. So I'd say, yes, I mean, I don't think if you'd asked me this before and I had the time to really think about it I would have said the basement? 

Sara: No, I know what you mean, though. It's interesting down there. 

Meg: It's interesting what happens when you get questions sprung on you, what comes to your head. 

Carmen: Absolutely. I'd probably have been thinking of some (mw 07.47) space being at front of house. 

Meg: You talked about your parents being from Saint Kitts and Nevis, do we have any artists from Saint Kitts and Nevis in the collection? 

Carmen: I'm not sure, you know, to be honest. Not necessarily within the collection. I know that we had various-, there is a piece which is from an artist who's of Jamaican descent. Ronald Moody. 

Meg: Is Ronald still alive? 

Carmen: No, he died in 1984 but that was in the collection. So we had an exhibition which was a wood exhibition. 

Sara: Oh yes, I know his work. 

Meg: Oh, woodwork. Also, just for our listeners just for context. I've been wanting Carmen to come onto the podcast literally forever but we had a really interesting conversation the other day about black artists and representation of black artists and black people in our collection but also in galleries in general. Yes, and then we started talking about the woodwork exhibition and is it Ashley Holmes, Carmen? 

Carmen: Yes, Ashley Holmes did a piece that we had recently. It's part of the Yorkshire Sculpture International, the piece was called Distend. Really interesting, actually. So what he'd done is that there was a volcanic eruption that had taken place in Jamaica many years ago, about 300 years ago and what he'd done is he'd done a piece and it was two models. One was a model which showed a piece that was lit and the lighting was set up in such a way that because it had been a volcanic eruption, my impression was that certain things have ended up underwater. So, he had the gallery lit in such a way to depict this but he also had music, he's also a musician as well. As far as I know he's from Sheffield. 

Sara: Yes, I was going to say, he's local. Yes, yes. 

Carmen: Yes, yes, he's from Sheffield. One piece-, and we talked about this and that was what I really enjoyed actually, because when I met him. When you went into the room which was in our small sculpture, you had two speakers which were above head height and then on top of that you had this lighting which, if you've ever been in a country where it's been really warm and-, so in like the Caribbean. It's really, kind of, tropical. When the light hits the water sometimes you get a bit of a blue haze on the water, it was that kind of look. So, filters had been put over the lights (TC 00:10:00) fittings that we had in that room. The atmosphere was really important so he had the atmospheres if you were underwater and the music that he'd put together was an original piece. It was a piece actually, that he said that apparently he'd been studying it and he wasn't exactly sure what piece. So, it was something from the wreckage that had taken place but it was also something that he hadn't quite worked out what it was. It looked like almost like the funnel from something, it was just. 

Meg: I thought it was, like-, it looked like a big horn or like a big trombone thing. Yes. 

Carmen: That's true, that's true. That's true, yes, that's true and so what he'd done is that he'd had it covered with moss and he had used plaster of Paris and he'd covered this item. It was quite interesting actually, when I asked him about it because I think that-, the thing is people come in and I suppose they expect us to know everything about everything, which we don't. But when I spoke to him I actually expected him to say to me, 'Oh, it's this.' But he said to me, 'I don't actually know what it is. I'm just literally-, it's an investigation I was doing but this is what it looks like.' So he had one sculpture which was, I suppose to some extent, was based I suppose on the history of this whole thing that had happened and the other piece was based on his love of music. One of the things was that he'd taken cast off, like, a speaker box. So when you have the speaker and you take the mesh bit off, normally there's a-, I think it's, like, a diaphragm that vibrates, where the sound comes from. Part of the sculpture was from that, was like this moulding from that and then there was like a horn piece. Which I asked him about that and he said, 'This was based on the indigenous people who were living in Jamaica at the time.' And what they'd do, because it was such a vast island, for them to be able to communicate they communicated by using these horns, but the interest with the horns I think goes back to the fact that he's a musician and music is something that really impacts on him. 

Sara: Yes, it's interesting that he's brought things together that have almost transcended time and that have a relevance today still and it's also really nice to hear from an artist that he's like, 'I don't really know what that is and this is how I've interpreted it.' And this is why I like art. Like, you were saying you like going to a museum, Meg, and you can look at something and it's almost got quite a definite history. You know, a lot of research has been done into it, especially if it's got a scientific basis, but I think what I like about art is the fact that it makes people so mad because they're like, 'I don't get it and I don't like it.' And it's like, 'Well, that's fine? No one's asking you to.' And your opinion can change and form and grow, and you can create your own story around it and I think that's what's really interesting and ultimately, it does come down to, 'These speaks to me or it doesn't.' And that's fine. 

Meg: I think a lot of the time, though, that is also down to the fact that because art is, like, naturally for visitors it's more open to interpretation than an object is. The interpretation, so the object labels that are in the galleries, don't tend to differ that much from the style that you find them in museums. 

Sara: No, they're definitely problematic. 

Meg: Yes, I think interpretation in galleries especially needs to up its game a little bit and be more layered. 

Sara: Absolutely. 

Meg: To get across the fact that it's okay and there are all these different interpretations. Sorry, Carmen, we were talking about woodwork a bit ago and we had an interesting conversation about the object labels in there, I think about the pieces that said unknown? 

Carmen: Yes. We had an exhibition which was about 2019, but what was really interesting. Some beautiful pieces that were in it, actually, I must admit, and it was done in collaboration with the Henry Moore Institute. Yes, we talked about the fact that there were labels that were in it that said, 'Maker not recorded.' I kind of found it interesting and the thing is, when I was looking into in terms of the actual artworks. So, the artwork itself was from our collection, I think. 

Meg: Yes, so the exhibition was an interdisciplinary for want of a really not interesting word, exhibition, bringing different parts of our collections together. 

Carmen: I think for us, in terms of the collection, it wasn't necessarily from the Leeds Art Gallery collection. So, it was a bigger scope. Lots of pieces that were really interesting so it kind of spanned quite a few-, I mean-, India, there was China, there was Africa, there was New Zealand. So you had culture such as the Maui culture but when it came to, the work was from such a vast expanse of cultures and places. One of the things that kept reoccurring theme. So you had the Barbara Hepworth pieces, where you knew who the artist was, you knew when the date when the work was done, some beautiful pieces. So, it wasn't just ancient works, it was also contemporary works but yes, it opened up a bigger thing where what you'd get is that that you would get pieces of work-, there was ones that were from Democratic Republic of Congo. There was ancestor figures. So-, and it would give you a date and then it would say, 'Maker not recorded.' So I suppose one of the things in terms of maker not recorded, it's unknown as to who the person was that did the artwork and I suppose, it then leads to bigger questions. For me anyway, it led to a bigger question of, unknown artist, is that also unknown as to how it got into the collection? And I think that for me, again, is interesting because I suppose it looks at the whole aspect of the British Empire and works that were acquired at times, not necessarily handed over, but were taken and maybe the reality is it's not recorded because is it not recorded? Or is it not just recorded by ourselves? 

Sara: Yes, I agree. 

Meg: Yes, but I think the fact that even if there has been work done in the background, how that object came into our collection was through legitimate means, it's maybe not that information isn't necessarily given to the visitor. 

Carmen: I think also as well, the thing is that we're in a period of time now, there's this move towards being transparent. So, when we have exhibitions in the building, and I think that's what I felt at the time, we've got this exhibition in this building and we've got these pieces of artwork in it and like I said, my main thought in terms of the exhibition was that it was really brilliant. I really loved it, I really enjoyed it but there were those questions and I think it would have been an opportunity. I don't recall at the time whether it happened. I don't think it did. There would have been opportunity to potentially have work alongside this and I know there was an artist, she's a poet, but I know she did something to do with Retribution. But yes, I don't think she was around for this piece. 

Meg: I was going to ask about Retribution actually because that is one of the pieces of artwork that I think is the most blatantly empirical. Is that right? Is that a word? Am I making up words, don't know, probably. Carmen, I don't know if you want to describe what it is? It's in the Ziff Gallery. 

Carmen: I mean, you can't miss it. Literally, from when you come into the building you look down, the whole length of the main gallery and the doors are open into Ziff Gallery, it's the first thing, you are looking at Retribution. So, by its very name Retribution. The main thing about it is-, when I look at it, I just think to myself, I suppose it's basically the newspaper of its time. It would have been-, you would have come in and you would have looked at it and the tiger represents India, and what looks to be-, I mean, is it male? Is it female? A character represents Britannia, represents Britain. So, Britain is the one that's the force to be reckoned with and they're the one that has got the upper hand, and when you look at the picture there is a woman and a baby that appear to be slaughtered. There were lots of Indians that were slaughtered as well which is not part of this depiction, and then you see a little child that's kind of carrying (ph 17.38) at the base of this picture. When a lot of people walk into the gallery, there's always this thing. I mean, it's quite funny because a lot of the time people don't necessarily read the labels anyway, so people just look at the picture and see the picture and then one of the things that I quite often hear. Like, you'll hear children that'll say, 'It's a man.' And then the adult will say, 'No, it's a woman.' The head of it very much looks like a guy but then there's definitely breasts. 

Meg: Some guys have breasts. Yes, no, it's a very striking painting, isn't it? 

Carmen: It is, yes and we have people that come and will look at it and say, 'Why have you got this picture up?' And take offence to the fact that it's there and it's showing this British imperial rule, and then other people just look at it and don't see any of that. They just see-, I mean, they're interested in the tiger. 

Meg: How do you feel about it? Having it up, something that pro-Empire? 

Carmen: You know what? I think having been brought up in the '60s and, kind of, gone through a school education, when we did, like, History lessons, you were shown British history, and I specifically remember this image where you'd had a boat, which was obviously a slave ship-, this was all obviously part of the education system, you'd have slaves that were laid out, and you showed them laid out on the decks and they just showed them as lines of people. I remember at the time, you just kind of did your History lesson, I didn't necessarily-, I mean, I had friends that questioned these things, I literally just looked at it. It's only when you get older you think, 'Why was I not questioning this at the time?' I'm literally being shown this picture, 600 slaves are brought from Africa to the Caribbean and then in the Caribbean there are the sugar plantations, and then from there, sugar comes to the UK. You're so immersed in it that you don't realise what implication is of that. You become desensitised. I suppose that's a word that's used a lot. 

Sara: Yes, but like you say, you were at school and you think, 'Well, the teacher's telling me this, that must be so.' 

Carmen: Yes. I had people I went to school with and they literally had a big massive issue with it and they would-, in terms of when they were doing the History lesson, they would pull the teacher up and say, like, 'What's all this about?', and the teacher was-, it was almost like that wasn't what the lesson was about, the lesson was a History lesson. It was about, 'This is British history.' It was almost like negating the fact and forgetting that you're teaching this history to black kids. So, you're saying to them, 'This is your history.' But I know that this is not just all our history's about, and then in a society where you-, you know what I mean, you're put upon because there's discrimination. (TC 00:20:00) Then, for someone to say to you, do you know what I mean, 'There's equality for everyone,' you think, 'Well, okay, then. If there was really equality for everyone would we be just talking about black history in terms of slavery, would we not be looking at the positives?' Do you know what I mean? We didn't just land in a slave ship. You know what I mean? Somebody had to go and take those slaves and bring them here and I think it's that kind of thing where you feel as if, you're told it and it's almost like, move on. 

Meg: Carmen, do you find that you have conversations with visitors that come in about things like Black Lives Matter and about things like-, is it Radical Reel that has the statues? And about Retribution being on the wall. Do you have lots of conversations with visitors about it? 

Carmen: To be honest, it kind of varies. I mean, I think generally speaking a lot of the time when visitors come in, they might ask you about a particular piece of work, but I think, for me personally, I think a lot of the times-, some people do bring these things up, but I don't think they normally tend to be bold enough. I think if I'm talking to somebody who-, say, a person of colour, and when I say a person of colour, I want to talk about-, you know, in terms of myself as a black person. I don't think that Black Lives Matter necessarily comes up because it's almost like it's our life. Because that's part of you, you don't necessarily have that conversation, or you don't necessarily need to have that conversation. The good thing about the Harold Offeh piece is that it allows you to have those conversations. I believe it's the latest piece that we've got into the collection. So, what it's really doing, it's looking at social issues and it's a video and there are also scripts, but they literally read a scrip that was original script, so it was transcribed from an actual programme. So, the question time one was looking at things like Black Lives Matter, it was looking at the British history and how it connected to people who had been former slave owners. So, that's where it looked at the pulling down of the Colston statue. The Black Lives Matter one was interesting and what you'd have is that the people on the panel would read the script and they read the script three times. I think, also, there was not really any rehearsal for this. You could see, as they got towards the third time, they were getting more familiar and more, kind of, relaxed about the character. Then they would discuss it with the other people who would be the audience and then what we've got is, like, a video of that whole thing. It's kind of a studio set-up, and it talks about, Black Lives Matter and you get the panel discussing what they've learnt from the script and then you get the audience interacting. 

I mean, one of the things that I was really interested in that came out of it, actually, was one of the people that were talking about it and her name's Fi, and one of the things that she picked up on was that apart from the fact that there's a lot of things about giving money or wrecking pence for what's happened to black people and people that have been caught up in as a result of slavery. And one of the things that came out of it as well was the fact that in 2015, Britain had just finished paying off a debt of money that had been paid to the slave owners when slavery was abolished in the UK, because black people were seen as property. Slaves were property, so what it was saying basically, what about the slaves themselves? Now we're in the 21st century, what about recompensing them? One of the things she brought up, a lot of people don't talk, is the fact that bloodlines were stopped. As in, people died. Like you said, the history's completely lost. There's this disjointment. Like, you know what I mean, you can go back this far, in terms of your history to the Caribbean, what about the history further on? 

I think I found it generally interesting anyway, and I think one of the things that, kind of, has come up for me, certainly since I've been in the gallery, and I think it's come up for me in the past anyway, just generally, but, again, I think I had this conversation with you that I was in the gallery once and this guy came in. I had my hair wrapped, so it was, just, wrapped in a scarf and I used to have it wrapped a lot of the time. I think really what he wanted to probably ask me is, like, does my wrap mean anything? Is there a cultural statement behind this? Like, do you know what I mean, is my family from a particularly place? He kept on saying to me, like, 'Where are you from?' Prior to this, which was, like, say about 2008, 2009, I would always go into this long spiel. I would be like, 'Oh, I was born in Leeds, brought up in Leeds, but my parents are from the Caribbean.' I always felt this need to say my parents are from the Caribbean because I'm a black woman and I think, for the longest time, I didn't realise that I was doing it, but, also, at the same time, I didn't realise, kind of, why I was doing it. Kind of, I knew I was-, the truth of the matter, I suppose, I know why I'm doing because it's almost like I felt this need to, kind of, explain myself. Then I, kind of, think about 2017, 2018, which, for me, is quite late, I, kind of, had a conversation with somebody and they were saying to me, 'Oh, I don't know that anymore. Do you know what I mean? If they want to ask me where I'm from, they should just ask me, do you know what I mean, where my family's from or where they've raised.' So, on this day in particular, when this guy came and asked me where I'm from, I said, 'I'm from Leeds,' and I, kind of, left it as that. 

So, anyway, the conversation went onto something else, some artwork, something and then he came back to ask me the same question again. I was thinking, 'I'm still-, I said, 'I'm from Leeds.' Then, eventually, he asked me the same question, again, and I must admit, I did say this, so I said to him, 'Well, I was born in Leeds. My parents are from the Caribbean, but, beyond that, I would really love to know my history, because, because of slavery and everything else, my former history is linked to Africa, but I personally don't know which part of Africa it is.' Literally, he just-, I mean, it was a white guy, and he completely ignored everything I said and just said, 'Oh, right, okay, because my wife is from-, I don't know where in Africa she was from. However she wraps her hair, it's linked to her particular culture. I thought, 'Okay then. That's interesting.' I just thought to myself, 'So you just really wanted to ask me if how my hair was wrapped was of any significance?' The truth of the matter is, I'm not sure what question he would've had to ask me or how he would've had to ask me to elicit that answer, but I just found it quite interesting. 

Meg: Well, it's a very long way around it, isn't it? Also the fact that you had to go back into that former self of you justifying your history. We always talk about how visitor assistants are so important because they're on, like, the front-line of our audiences and it's just like they are the first port of call for everything and they are so knowledgeable. My experience and your experience of work, like, we're not always sat at a desk, but, I guess, we don't have that. We're not on the front-line. So, you have, like, another element of talking to people all the time, but then, as a white woman, I would never experience that. As a visitor assistant, like, you have an extra layer of having to, I don't know, frame how you reply to people who talk to you in that way and stuff. 

Carmen: Yes. I think, to be honest, saying this has just brought me to think about one time, actually, when I first came back to here. Actually, if I'm being honest, I'm feeling a little bit emotional about this, but anyway, I'll say it. 

Sara: You don't have to talk about it. 

Meg: No, you don't have to if you don't want to. 

Carmen: No, that's fine. I don't even know why because, at the time, I literally thought it was a bit of a joke. I think it would've been, say, maybe 2018. I was in the sculpture gallery and this guy walked in. Well, he was heading towards the bathroom, but, as he heading there and I wasn't quite sure where he was heading, I was, like, 'Oh, can I help you?' He was like, 'No.' I sat up, like, 'Okay then.' Then, he went off and he went to the bathroom. I know in our building it can be, kind of, like, you can get lost a little bit sometimes. People come back and literally they're looking just for the exit and you're in sculpture and you're like, 'It's just up there'. You can see them almost, like, getting ready to walk around the corner where you know there's no exit. You just know they're not-, 

Meg: Yes, yes, yes. That's me every day I come here. You know like in 'The Sims' when you're just, like, walking into a wall. 

Carmen: You're know they're not going round the corner to look at a piece of work, even though you know there's a piece of work round there. You know they're literally heading back to the café. You know what I mean? Kind of, like, your head just says to you, 'Maybe I just tell them, do you want the exit?' So, it was one of those situations. Anyway, he went off to the bathroom and he came back. Then, on the way back, he just said to me, like-, I can't remember the exact wording that he used for it. He said to me, like, 'I know this building.' I said, 'You know, if you do, that's great.' He goes to me, 'Because my grandad,' or some relative, 'Had been involved in building the building.' I was like, 'Okay.' He says, 'Well, you wouldn't know.' I was like, 'Well, why wouldn't I know?' He goes, 'Because none of your people were involved.' I was just like. Again, it wasn't necessarily that wording, but that's basically the emphasis of it. I just, like, looked at him and I was like, 'How do you know? How do you know that nobody that I know was involved in this?' I mean, I have no reason to believe that anybody was involved in this that I know, but I just-, 

Sara: Also, neither was anyone else that worked here. 

Meg: Yes. I'm sorry you had to deal with that Carmen. 

Carmen: No, I mean, to be honest, that was probably, I suppose, in a sense, like, the closest I would to say somebody being, like, blatantly racist. I don't know, it was probably a shock, but it, kind of, wasn't, if you know what I mean? Yes, I think I kind of get the impression with him it was just the fact that I was even speaking to him. Maybe just the reality was he didn't want to speak to me. Maybe the fact that I'd engaged with him, in terms of conversation. Probably he felt like he had more affiliation with the building than I did, so it was, like, do you know what I mean, 'I've got a history with this building and, like, who are you?' It felt a bit more like that, that kind of thing. 

Meg: I think it's sad as well that, like, we put a focus a lot of the time on making our venues feel like safe places for people and I think we take for granted that that is aimed at visitors. 

Carmen: I suppose, it's just part of being who I am. I'm, you know what I mean, a black woman. The reality is, you, kind of, rise above it. I mean, I'd like to say I'm made from strong stuff. I'm, you know what I mean, a black lass from the Caribbean, whose parents are from the Caribbean. You know what I mean, born in Yorkshire. 

Meg: Carmen, before we get onto our last three questions, is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't talked about yet? 

Carmen: I just think in reality, (TC 00:30:00) just in terms of the collection, I think there is a need to have more black artist's work on show and actually have it identified in terms of black artists. Not because we don't necessarily have any in our collection. I mean, I think we had this conversation about a piece that's upstairs. It's of a black woman on the portrait wall and it's by Ronald Dunlop. So, the artwork was done in 1931. It's called Melita. The only thing we know about it at the moment is that Melita means honey sweet. That particular portrait is an old painting. 

Meg: It's so beautiful. I love it. 

Carmen: It's so cute. I mean, but I just want to know who she is. 

Sara: She looks deep, like she's got a lot going on in her head. 

Carmen: Yes and, I mean, he's a person that, kind of, like, travelled a lot. I mean, British artist, but, like, went to France, like, knew a lot of people at the time, Whistler (ph 30.56). Like, all forms of work. Talked about Ben Nicholson, abstract work. He talked about doing portraits, but he didn't seem to concentrate on portraits as being one of the things that he was necessarily brilliant at. He talks about being an emotionalist. It's not really a term I've really come across before, but it's, like, painting things or doing work that's almost like your heart has an interest in. So, it's, like, you do it because you like it or you love it. Then he talks about the fact that he was never-, when he'd do artwork, I think he did the artwork that he wanted. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that really compromises. You know, he painted in the style that he wanted to paint in and he even said that, of the portraits that he did-, it makes me laugh actually. He said probably, like, nine out of ten times, the vast majority of people would not be happy with the portrait at the end of it. 

Meg: Oh, yes? 

Carmen: Yes, they'd just look at it and I think they'd probably think, 'That does not look like me.' 

Meg: If it's called Melita, that portrait, do you think he fancied her? If it means honey sweet? 

Sara: I mean, she is a beautiful woman. 

Meg: He's, like, just trying to flirt with Melita. She looks sad though as well, doesn't she? 

Sara: Yes, she looks deep in thought. 

Carmen: There's that look of contemplation, isn't there? 

Meg: Anyone listening, if you're in the art gallery-, well, if you're not in the art gallery, come to the art gallery. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: It's upstairs on the portrait wall, on the right-hand side? 

Sara: It's really beautiful. 

Carmen: Yes. Plug my friend, but anyway, I've got a friend called Garnet Dore. He's been doing artwork for years. There's obviously always the need for having a black female artist. I know we had Lubaina. 

Meg: Lubaina Himid. 

Sara: Lubaina Himid. 

Carmen: Himid. Yes, we had her work upstairs. 

Sara: That's our collection, isn't it? Five? 

Meg: Yes, it's at the Tate at the minute. 

Sara: I like it. It's really, like, sassy. 

Meg: It's really good. 

Carmen: I like it as well, because that talks about this link between, like, where you are now. So, as a black person, it looks at the dysphoria. There's a table and it has different things on it, but one of the things that it does is kind of like traces a line which, kind of, shows where the person is in Europe, but it also looks at where they've come from in terms of their history. I didn't realise that at first, actually, and then I looked at it. 

Meg: I've never realised that. 

Sara: No. 

Carmen: Yes, that was an interesting piece. 

Meg: Right, Carmen. We've reached the point in the pod where we ask our guests the same three questions. The first one is, what's been your favourite day at work? 

Carmen: I think the reality is there's not really a day when I'm disappointed. I love my job and I do absolutely love my job. When we went into lockdown, I remember, like, being at home for about two weeks. 'Nobody is allowed in the building. Lockdown, you've got to stay at home.' I did not enjoy that at all, I'll be honest with you. I suppose, everybody was freaking out because, obviously, you know what I mean, like I say, the word 'unprecedented' had not been overused, it was absolutely unprecedented. I remember when the decision was made that they wanted someone to start coming into the gallery. Initially, it was just to come in and do checks, so me and somebody else, like, volunteered. I automatically put my hand up, 'I will come in.' When I come into the art gallery, I just think, 'Wow, this isn't a bad way to spend my day.' You know, I'd walk in the gallery and I'd literally think to myself, I've got the whole building, it's just beautiful, and-, I just can see (ph 33.59), like, that loft apartment in America. I thought, 'The space that's in here, it's, like, literally, there's no one in here.' There was, like, about two or three people rattling around the building, but then you'd have the town hall café, you can go and have your lunch-, 

Sara: That's a good day. I love it. Her favourite day is when there are no visitors. So, last question is a two-fold one and I think you've partly answered this really. So, the first part of the question is what you'd like your listeners to take away from what we've spoken about? 

Carmen: I think being open-minded. We have so many people that come into the gallery and, when they come in, they have their favourite thing they want to see. Like, some people just don't like the Ziff Gallery. They don't like that historical artwork. It's not their thing. We have the East gallery and it's got a lot of contemporary artwork in there and contemporary's not their thing. They're very quick to, kind of, make a judgement and say, why do we have these things in our gallery? They've got to remember, at the end of the day, a gallery should be a place that people can go into and be challenged, in terms of their thoughts. It should be a gallery that people go into and there'd be lots of different things that they can see and they're going to hopefully take away something they like, but there might be other things that they're not going to enjoy as well. The reality is, they don't have to take them home, even though they might want to take some of it home. 

Meg: You can take them home, if you are a member of our Picture Library. 

Carmen: Yes, it's true. I think that's one of the main things really and really just, kind of, like, being able to approach us as staff. I quite enjoy talking to the public. They're a valuable resource, to be fair. 

Meg: They're alright, aren't they? 

Carmen: They know a lot of stuff. By and large, we get beautiful people that come in here. I mean, we get some really nice people that come into this gallery. Generally, the people that come in here are really, really sweet people. 

Meg: Bill Nighy came in here once. 

Sara: God, I so wish I was in for that day. 

Meg: Yes, I was as well. 

Sara: On the back of that, I usually ask this question all at once, but I've split it out today just because I'm really excited. On the basis of exotic fruits, what's your actual, literal favourite takeaway? 

Carmen: Takeaway. 

Sara: I can't imagine you having a takeaway because your body is a temple. 

Meg: You're too pure, yes. 

Carmen: Well, I do. I do. 

Sara: Yes, good girl. 

Carmen: I have to say, my old favourite is a place called Calabash. It's a small, little restaurant on Chapel Town Road and they do West Indian food, so rice and peas, fish. They will do a macaroni cheese which is quite standard. 

Meg: Oh, I didn't know that was West Indian food. 

Carmen: Yes, macaroni cheese. 

Sara: Mac cheese? 

Carmen: Yes, mac cheese, but it's done in probably a different way to the general mac cheese. 

Meg: Yes, oh my God. Let's go. 

Carmen: Mac cheese, yes, rice and peas, fish. Like fish sauce with onions. So, yes, they're my old favourite. Yes, also, as well, I think it reminds me of mum's cooking. It's not, like, really hot seasoning. It's just, you can taste the spices, so yes. 

Meg: Yes, we've not had Western Indian. 

Carmen: Shout-out to Calabash. 

Meg: Calabash. 

Carmen: Yes, Calabash. 

Sara: Amazing. 

Meg: That's a first for the pod. 

Carmen: It is. That's excellent. 

Meg: West Indian food is actually the one cuisine that I would never go out for and, if someone said, 'Let's get one,' I'd be like, 'No,' because I don't like rice. 

Carmen: You don't like rice. 

Meg: I do not like rice Carmen. 

Carmen: Oh right, okay. 

Meg: Even, like, when I have curry and stuff, I'm just like, 'No, don't want the rice.' 

Carmen: They do what's called hard food, so hard food would be, like, your yams, dumplings, things like that. 

Meg: Yes, I do love a dumpling. For you, I'll give it a go. 

Carmen: You can just have the meat. 

Meg: Vegetarian. 

Carmen: Oh, really sorry. 

Sara: Have you ever met Meg? She's really picky. 

Meg: I'm so picky. This is the thing. It's quite a hard cuisine for me. 

Sara: I think any cuisine's hard for you. You're just picky. 

Meg: Carmen, thank you so much for coming on. (Silence 37.21-37.36). Hello. 

Sara: Oh, hi, we're back. 

Meg: Can you get off your phone please? 

Sara: Sorry, I'm very busy. 

Meg: How;s your coffee? 

Sara: It's a tea. It's massive. It's offensively large. 

Meg: Sara and I just went to-, I just called you Thara. 

Sara: Thara. 

Meg: Just went to Starbucks. 

Sara: Ultimately, disappointed in us, but it's the closest place. 

Meg: No offence to anyone who does to Starbucks. I believe it's very popular. 

Sara: I don't care. 

Meg: Yes, we're just, sort of, like, coffee snobs, aren't we? 

Sara: Yes, I just prefer to go to an independent, but-, 

Meg: Oh, that tastes like-, sometimes, I feel like coffee tastes like cigarettes. You went for an Americano. I don't think that the quality is that great. Like, look how big that is. 

Sara: Yes, it is. 

Meg: Do I want that of milk? 

Sara: No. 

Meg: Literally, immediately after recording that Sara was like, 'I've got a headache.' 

Sara: Oh, well. That's rich, isn't it? Pot kettle black. 

Meg: Brilliant. 

Sara: It was just really nice to have a little quality chat time with Carmen because she works front of house, it does tend to be quite fleeting, albeit sweet. 

Meg: Speaking of sweet, guess what I'm eating right now guys? 

Sara: Shortbread. You said you weren't going to eat anymore of that because it tasted like school shortbread. 

Meg: Yes, but what I didn't tell you was I like school shortbread. 

Sara: I honestly can't do anything right. How did you find the episode? 

Meg: Really good, but, what I will say is-, 

Sara: Here we go. 

Meg: We recorded for two hours. This is a 45 minute podcast. It's just impossible to get everything in, isn't it? We could've talked to Carmen for, like, another three hours. Sometimes, I think, afterwards, when we're talking about things like that, I worry that, like, what I said is so irrelevant. Do you? 

Sara: Oh, 100%. Like, I'm absolutely nowhere near educated enough, second guess every single thing. Didn't say what I wanted to because I just don't have enough education around the subject and that's the crying shame really. 

Meg: I know, but also, I think our priority is literally just, like, making sure that Carmen says everything she wants to. Do you know what I mean? 

Sara: Oh God, yes. 

Meg: I hope so because I think that, how good is Carmen? 

Sara: Oh, she is wicked. 

Meg: Carmen's sisters are literally just, like, together. 

Sara: Can you imagine having, like, a dinner date? 

Meg: They probably don't even remember who I am, but I think about them all the time. 

Sara: That would be so much fun. 

Meg: That drunk girl that's always at the previews banging onto us. Sorry, go on. 

Sara: No, I was going to say-, so, what was your best learn? As you take a mouthful of sprinkles. 

Meg: Yes, I'm so sorry everyone. 

Sara: Oh, that's so crunchy. 

Meg: Oh god. Yes because it's got those little balls on. (TC 00:40:00) You know those hard balls that give literally no taste whatsoever. 

Sara: Sugar balls. 

Meg: My dentist, Simran's is going to be really angry at me. Shout-out to Simran. 

Sara: You've done a lot of shout-outs in this episode. 

Meg: Haven't I? Simran's really good though. Anyway, my favourite learn? Again, harking back, if I may, back to Ian's episode. You know how Ian was all like, 'Favourite's a tricky word'? 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: When you're talking about tragedies, fine. 

Sara: Fair. 

Meg: Favourite's also a hard word when you're talking about racism, so, I don't know, I think the bit that will stick with me the most is when she was talking about her experience as a visitor assistant and you know that bit when she was just like, 'God, I'm getting emotional,' and then told us about that racist guy? 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: I know at the beginning of the episode we were talking about, you know, when I've had a bad day at work, like, I really just want to get home. I'm, like, wow, was it really that bad? It just puts it into perspective, doesn't it? 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Like, me having to reframe my mind about the bad day that I've had is literally, like, pathetic compared to Carmen having to reframe her mind about what her bad day is. Do you know what I mean? 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Pathetic. I just, I don't know, I think I've never really-, I mean, I talk to Carmen a lot and I've spoken to her lots in the last few weeks, but we always talk about stuff like this and yes, I've never really had that much of an in-depth, like, solid two hour sit down chat with her about it and I think that was really good. I think it's important to talk about. 

Sara: Yes, definitely. 

Meg: I guess we can't ever-, sorry. 

Sara: No, go. She's off on her soapbox. 

Meg: It's like talking to my therapist. Shout-out to Alison. Yes, I guess, we're not trying to solve it, but, it's weird, with other episodes, I feel like there's a start and an end and, like, we have resolved something within that or, like, I leave thinking, 'Yes, I've asked all the questions that I want to ask.' I think, with that, I haven't because there's just no end to it, is there? 

Sara: No and I think that, well, the point of us doing this was that we wanted to start having those more open discussions and challenging things and, kind of, asking questions. It is Carmen talking about her life experience, you know, growing up as a child, like, in the '60s and '70s and then, you know, that's her life and that's what she's dealing with, but also that she still loves everyday that she comes into work. I don't know, it, kind of, breaks my heart a little bit. 

Meg: I think it makes me feel very-, like, when we talking about the artwork that we have on display that maybe inspires conversation or, you know, is potentially a bit controversial-, I don't know whether that's even the right word, to be honest, but, like, with Retribution, for example. It makes me really, like, yes, right, what are we going to do? Do you know what I mean? It's, kind of, pepped me up. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: So, I'm like, okay, how do we look at-, one of the things that I wanted to say actually when we were talking to her is that's the thing. Like, we were saying about how in galleries, specifically, artwork is so open to interpretation that the object labels that come with them can never cover everything, but then there are some things that galleries, in general, have that shouldn't be open to interpretation, in my mind, I think. Or, like, visitors shouldn't have to interpret how you, as a service, how feel about that thing or you, as a gallery, feel about that thing. You should be saying, 'This is this piece of artwork and it is racist because of this reason and that is our stance on it.' Fine, you can say, 'What do you think?' but I don't think you can say, 'Oh, well, this inspires conversation. What do you think about it?' if something is flagrantly insulting or offensive to some people. 

Sara: Yes and I think, unfortunately, the old argument falls back on, 'Well, that's history,' but the beauty of history is that it can be changed and retold. I don't know, especially working in this sector, being part of something where you're actively changing and rewriting the past is surely the most important aspect that we then tell it as accurately as possible or we get to a position where we can tell it accurately for future generations because that's the most important thing. You know, we were talking about in terms of being at school and being told this is a certain aspect of history and it's just the way it is, whereas, 'We can glorify this aspect of history because we choose to.' That's wrong. 

Meg: Sara and I have one (inaudible 44.16). 

Sara: Oh, yes. Anyway. 

Meg: Anyway, sorry. What was your best bit there? 

Sara: I think just generally just hearing about Carmen's, sort of, background and how she came to be where she is now and the fact that it's, kind of, come full circle and she just seems really content with that, but, at the same time, still passionate about making change and having conversations. You know, she spoke a lot about just speaking to people and having conversations and opening up that dialogue. That's really important and I think that not enough of that is done. It gives people an opportunity to sit back and hide away and really we need to be a little bolder in just talking. That's a big one, isn't it? 

Meg: Fantastic. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Speaking of talking to each other. 

Sara: Hear we are. This is the episode. 

Meg: That's where we're doing right now on this podcast and, if you like this podcast-, 

Sara: You can like it and subscribe and leave us a review. 

Meg: Leave us a review, get a badge. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: And respect. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Oh God. 

Sara: Thank yous? 

Meg: Yes, thank you to Timmy Bentley who wrote our theme music for us and thank you to Al Finney (ph 45.26) who did our cover art work. Love you Al, love you Timmy. If you want to get in touch with us, you can do. I'm @MuseumMeg on Twitter and Sara is @SaraLMerritt and together we are-, 

Sara: @LeedsMuseums. 

Meg: We're not going to do on who we've got on next episode because I don't know what order these are going out in. Although, actually, it might be around Christmas, you know, when this goes out? 

Sara: Yes, it will be around Christmas if we get our editing arses into gear. 

Meg: Sara, for the first time in four series, has offered to help me edit this episode because it's, like, two hours long, so here she is, sort of, dipping in and taking all the glory. 

Sara: Hey, I've tried to help you before and you love it. 

Meg: Listen. 

Sara: You keep making excuses why I can't help. 

Meg: It's because I don't think you can do it as good as I am because I'm a control freak. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Deep seated control issues. 

Sara: That's probably, definitely correct. 

Meg: Alison's working on those, don't worry. 

Sara: I'll try it anyway. 

Meg: Anyway, I think that's it. If it is Christmas, I hope you've had a good one, if you celebrate it and I guess we'll see you on the other side. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Right, see you later guys. Bye. 

Sara: Bye.