I don't know if I've mentioned, but I'm vegan

200 years old we are. 200! years! old!

This year Leeds Museums & Galleries celebrates a (very) big birthday, and Projects Curator Catherine Robins has been party-planning the whole shebang. Find out how to open an exhibition with an army of excellent volunteers, what happened when Leeds was bombed in 1941 and what celery has to do with a budgie called Papa Guy.

Do not expect to find out what a fossil is, because we literally do not know.

Find out more about our 200th Birthday

Listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.

Transcript

Catherine Robins S4 E3 transcript

KEY: Unable to decipher = (inaudible + timecode), Phonetic spelling (ph) + timecode), Missed word = (mw + timecode), Talking over each other = (talking over each other + timecode). 

Meg: I'm tired. 

Sara: Tired, you need a wee, you're hungry, you're thirsty. You remind me of a toddler. 

Meg: Hello, it's us, and welcome to the Museums n'that podcast, where each episode we have a chin-wag, and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums & Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions you really want to know. I think that mine sounds weird. 

Sara: You're the problem. 

Meg: Yes, I am. 

Sara: It's a big thing for you to admit, isn't it Meg? 

Meg: I know. Go on, you alright? 

Sara: Yes, fine thanks, how are you? What's been happening? What's happened this week for you? 

Meg: What's been happy? 

Sara: What's been happening. 

Meg: What is happiness? 

Sara: I'll go. 

Meg: Yes, God, that was a telling silence, wasn't it? 

Sara: Yes, this week, stuff has happened, but actually one of my favourite things was that I had pie for dinner. 

Meg: Well. 

Sara: What? 

Meg: I just don't really like pie, I'm not really interested. 

Sara: You don't like pie, you don't like couscous, you don't like soup. 

Meg: Because they're all trash, they're all trash foods. 

Sara: They're really not. Pie, are you kidding? 

Meg: Yes, I can't be bothered, go away. If you're a pie, get out. 

Sara: Just perfect. You can have whatever you want encased in pastry. I don't see where the issue is in that. 

Meg: Yes, I don't like pastry that much to be honest. 

Sara: Oh, for God's sake. 

Meg: Unless it's wrapped around a Bakewell tart. 

Sara: This is the same girl that told me earlier, despite the fact that it's blowing a bloody gale outside, she loves crisp, cold salad any time of year. Wrong. 

Meg: Salad gets a bad rep, and I don't know why. 

Sara: Because it's boring. 

Meg: Right. 

Sara: Unless its got loads of bread in it. 

Meg: I think maybe we've reached a point where we need to stop doing this podcast now. We're just nagging at each other like a pair of old, married people. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: Is it time to talk about divorce? 

Sara: Did you sign that pre-nup? I did. What happened in your well? 

Meg: What a funny little ditty that was. I watched Stath Lets Flats. 

Sara: You love it. 

Meg: I think it's the funniest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. I can't believe how funny it is. 

Sara: Is it to the point where, we have this in our house, if one of us finds a programme really funny, but the other one's not that bothered, the other one gets really annoyed about them laughing all the time, and it's just like, it's not even that funny, stop laughing. 

Meg: I do do that sometimes. If someone recommends me something, I deliberately don't like it. 

Sara: Yes, you go out of your way to not like it. Yes, I can tell that. 

Meg: Depending on what it is. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: And who it is. If you recommended me something, I'm being mean to you today, I don't know what it is. 

Sara: Spent too much time with me this week, I think. 

Meg: I know, I'm being so salty, we've spent so much time together. Also, me and Sara have just recorded a load of videos, because we do videos now. If you're listening to this, and you just watched our video, sorry about that. 

Sara: We apologise profusely. Turns out we're way more comfortable not being on screen. 

Meg: God, I love people not seeing my face. 

Sara: Yes, brilliant. 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: Anyway, I don't care about your week anymore, so who are we talking about today? 

Meg: We're talking to Catherine. Shout out to Catherine Robins, our guest today, who's one of our projects curators, and she's been working on our 200th birthday. 200 years of Leeds Museums & Galleries. 

Sara: Big one. 

Meg: So yes, hoping we find out about some history. 

Sara: History and that. So, if you enjoy this episode, or even if you don't, subscribe, like, rate us, listen, do all of the things. Thank you. 

Meg: Tell your friends you love them. 

Sara: Look after your friends and family, folks. 

Meg: God, this has been a weird one, hasn't it? 

Sara: It has. A big delirious. We should stop doing these on a Friday, when we're literally out of juice. 

Meg: Yes. So anyway, good luck for the next 30 minutes of us talking, and enjoy Catherine Robins' episode of Museums n'that. There's also the sound of the bathroom doors opening and closing, which for some reason, that's the noise that the microphones pick up. So, just every time someone from Leeds Museums & Galleries goes for a poo you can hear it on our podcast. 

Sara: Well welcome Catherine, to Museums n'that. How exciting, how are you doing? 

Catherine Robins: I'm doing alright thanks, I'm a little bit nervous that I don't know anything, but yes, good thank you. 

Meg: You literally know so much. 

Sara: Yes. 

Meg: You've literally been working on this project for two years. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, that's the pressure. There's an expectation. 

Meg: Brilliant. Catherine, we start off by asking our guests who the flip they are. 

Catherine Robins: I am Catherine Robins, and I'm Project Curator, which means that I manage and develop projects across the service. So, I work across all of the sites, and the project I've been working on since I started, for the past couple of years, is the 200th birthday. So, looking at 200 years of Leeds Museums & Galleries. 

Meg: I mean, you say you've been working on this for two years, so you should know stuff about it, but it's 200 years to try and cram in, isn't it, in two years' worth of doing things. So, good work. Good effort. 

Sara: What's the best year? 

Catherine Robins: Let's go with 1921, because that's when the Leeds Philosophical and Literary Society handed over their collections to Leeds City Council, which is why we are now Leeds Museums & Galleries, roughly. 

Meg: Oh wait, so they did that 100 years ago? 

Catherine Robins: Yes. 

Meg: That's just perfectly neat and wonderful because then so, 200 years ago, they became a thing, and then 100 years ago. 

Catherine Robins: I know, right? 

Meg: God, that's so convenient. Shout out to them. 

Catherine Robins: Yes. 

Meg: Okay so, doing projects then. Day-to-day, what does that mean? 

Catherine Robins: It kind of depends where you are in the project. So, the start of it involves a lot of research, and trying to get a feel for the subject matter, and then chatting to people to see what connections you can make, any partnerships, planning some events, maybe some exhibitions, so it kind of depends where you are in the project, which isn't a very helpful answer. There's some spreadsheets, and then meetings. 

Sara: Spreadsheets and meetings. 

Meg: I hate spreadsheets so much. 

Sara: Oh my God, I know you do, which really annoys me, because they answer so many questions. Every time I see a damn Word document with a table in it, there's a program for that. 

Meg: Because my social media content plans were all in tables in Word. 

Sara: I moved them. 

Meg: Sara was fuming about it. 

Sara: Yes, true. 

Catherine Robins: Honestly, I enjoy making something on Excel, like a project plan, being really satisfied with it, and then not referring back to it for another six months. 

Sara: Oh ignoring it, absolutely, yes, but if anyone asks you, it's there, it's fine. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, yes. 

Sara: You haven't looked at it, you don't use it, it's absolutely not gone to plan. But it's there. 

Catherine Robins: Am I on track? Who knows, but look how organised I look. 

Meg: Project Curator's role is sounding riveting right now. 

Sara: We've literally just talked for like, three minutes about Excel. 

Catherine Robins: Sorry, sometimes I look at objects. That's nice too. 

Meg: And also, to be fair, shout out to Excel, do you know what I mean? 

Sara: So, 200 years, kind of a big deal. What on earth did you ask for? 

Catherine Robins: What did I ask for? 

Sara: Yes, it's a 200th birthday. What do you get a 200-year-old? 

Catherine Robins: Well, we did get some good cakes at the exhibition opening, so that was really good. 

Meg: I'd really like to drill down into these cakes actually, because there were three, I ate all of them, and I don't know what they were. They were fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. 

Catherine Robins: So, I'm kind of the wrong person to ask, because I don't know if I've mentioned, but I'm vegan, and therefore I couldn't eat the cakes, which is very upsetting. 

Meg: Oh, sad. Why did no-one consult you on that? 

Catherine Robins: I know, right? 

Meg: Outrageous. 

Catherine Robins: But it's okay, we're having a volunteer get together in about a month, and I'm going to make sure that we order. 

Meg: Loads of carrots. 

Catherine Robins: That's not where I was going, I was going more for celery. 

Meg: Negative calories, what is it? The only good thing you can do with celery is stick it in a Bloody Mary, that's it. 

Sara: No, it's quite nice with some peanut butter. 

Meg: Oh my God, I hate peanut butter so much. That would be my idea of hell, a hell snack. Also, this is probably not going to make it in, but whenever I think of celery, I always think about, basically when I was younger, I had these neighbours from Belgrade, and they had a budgie called Papa Guy, and I always used to feed him little bits of celery, which is cute, but now every time I see celery, I'm like, it's for birds. 

Sara: I also think it's so stringy, and I worry that I'm going to choke when eating it, so if you've given that to a bird, I don't know. 

Meg: Yes, it certainly did like it. 

Catherine Robins: Did you chop it up before you gave it to him? 

Meg: No, you just sort of stuck it through the cage. 

Catherine Robins: Alright, so you've just let him choke on all of the stringy celery. 

Sara: He really liked it. He didn't wake up, but I think he was in a food coma. 

Meg: He literally lived until he was eighteen. 

Sara: Really? Wow. 

Catherine Robins: Maybe it was all the celery. 

Meg: You'd say his name, and you'd go, 'Papa Guy,' and then he'd go, (whistles 08.28). 

Catherine Robins: Oh, that's cool. 

Meg: Yes, it was really good. 

Catherine Robins: I like it. 

Meg: Anyway. 

Sara: Right, so that was disappointing, because you didn't get anything. You literally didn't get anything for the 200th birthday. 

Meg: You got an exhibition though, Catherine. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, we did get an exhibition, and that was very satisfying, because yes, lots of volunteers worked on that, because I think the thing with exhibitions, it feels like everyone I speak to feels this. You open an exhibition, and people are like, 'Are you happy with it?' You're like, 'Absolutely not, because I can only see the things I would have done better.' But, the great thing about working with volunteers on it is that other people have developed parts of it. 

Meg: Blame goes elsewhere. 

Catherine Robins: No, I don't mean the blame, I mean you can go in and be like, 'Oh, some of this, the bits that I didn't work on, are really nice. This is great.' You can actually go and enjoy at least some of the exhibition, so that was a nice treat. Maybe that was what I personally got for the 200th birthday, being able to enjoy some of the exhibition. 

Sara: Wasn't it the first big exhibition that we opened since coming back from COVID and everything? So, no pressure, but obviously also a lot of pressure. So I think that's interesting, because the first one to have to navigate all of those different ways of working, and new rules and procedures, and everything just takes a long time. I mean, well done for getting it open. 

Catherine Robins: There were times where that felt quite far off, because yes, you're trying to co-curate an exhibition in a pandemic. Oh, it was hard, but actually I don't think I would have achieved what I did without the support of that volunteer group, but yes, it did mean that we were constantly changing. I was like, 'Can we meet and look at objects?' 'No, not yet, not (TC 00:10:00) yet.' Loads of the object selections we just did from looking at records on the collection database, because we couldn't get on-site to look at them. Obviously I didn't start until a month before we went into a lockdown, so I was like, 'Yes, I've not seen them either, let's hope that they fit.' 

Sara: Oh my God. 

Meg: Oh my God. 

Sara: Oh my God. What is happening? 

Meg: Oh wow, that's the ceiling. Okay, woah. 

Sara: Right, sorry, for any listeners, what just happened there was there was a massive gust of wind, and then the ceiling sort of started moving. 

Meg: It's like a horror film in here. 

Sara: (talking over each other 10.32). Do we need to shut that window? 

Meg: It feels like Beetlejuice. 

Sara: This one? 

Catherine Robins: No, that one's shut. 

Meg: We could, but it means I have to get up. 

Sara: Oh, for God's sake, right. 

Meg: By the way, so we've got this new recording thing, and it's got pre-recorded sound effects. So look, when Sara sits down. 

Catherine Robins: Brilliant. 

Meg: Are you really pleased with yourself? 

Sara: Oh, that is good, thank you. 

Meg: What's your favourite pre-recorded sound effect that it does? 

Sara: Wait. 

Meg: That's good, isn't it? 

Sara: Yes, that's one's nice. 

Meg: Sounds like pantomime. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, that's what I want when I walk in a room. 

Sara: Right, well we'll put that on at the beginning, don't you worry. We'll chuck that one in for you. 

Meg: That one's pink. Wait, I want to ask Catherine about the exhibition. 

Sara: Right, okay, go on then. 

Meg: Because we've literally just talked to Catherine about the exhibition, but we haven't actually explained what the exhibition is. 

Sara: Oh God. 

Meg: What's it about? 

Catherine Robins: It's kind of a 200 year history of Leeds through the collections of Leeds Museums & Galleries. So, the whole concept of the exhibition was developed between all the volunteers, and I think that as a service, we kind of went out being like, 'Yeah yeah, we're going to look at 200 years of the service,' and then the volunteers were like, 'Not wild about that.' Instead, we want to look at these themes. So, music, LGBTQ+, there's also a theme called 'Where Are We,' which was co-created by three young black women from Leeds, looking at how they see themselves represented in our collections, and the origins of some of our collections. Housing, ordinary people's housing. So again, we were sort of like, oh, quite often it goes to these grand houses that we have in Leeds which are really great and interesting, but actually we want to look at how the majority of people might have lived. So, started off by looking at slum housing, and back-to-back housing, which are not the same, and people that live in back-to-back housing now will get very angry. 

Meg: By the way, no-one down south knows what back-to-back housing is. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, I know, it's wild. 

Sara: We get that, because I live in a back-to-back. 

Meg: I have recently moved out of a back-to-back, but yes, I did live in one for five years. 

Sara: People still cannot get over that it's like, we don't have a back garden. 

Meg: Just for any listeners who aren't in the North of England, a back-to-back house, it's literally, it has a front door, and it's like a terraced house, but then there's another row of terraces attached to the back of it, so you've basically only got a front to your house, and your house is attached to three other houses. 

Sara: I love it, because it's like a little community. 

Meg: A warm house. Also, just on the Where Are We theme, so part of the exhibition is, there's Post-its everywhere, visitors can write their feedback, and answer the questions that were asked in the exhibition, right, and me and Sara went in there the other day, and on the Where Are We panel, someone had written on a Post-it, and stuck it on just saying, 'We're in a museum in Leeds.' It really made me laugh. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, I love the combination of the Post-its. Some of them are incredibly thoughtful, and valid, so there was one that, one of the questions for the LGBTQ+ theme is, why is it important to see yourself represented, and somebody had written, 'I have a disability and I don't see myself represented here.' And it's like, that's totally valid, and something that we as a service can work on, but then you go over to the bin, in the recycling section, and there's just loads of bin jokes written on it. 

Meg: Brilliant, brilliant, lots of please turn overs and then funny little drawings on the back, of which I sent a picture to our team WhatsApp, cheered everyone right up. I think it's really interesting, because obviously we always look at different ways to gather feedback, whether it be anecdotally, or through surveys, or whatever, and having something that's so simple, that's accessible for the majority of people, actually has done really well, to the point where, I mean, they're covering up all the interpretation. All that time and effort you put into writing that interpretation, can't read it any more, because it's just covered in Post-it notes, but that's fine, because that's what people want to do, and people take from it whatever they want. For me, working with you on the project and the exhibition, I think it was just a different way of trying to figure out what should go where, and how it should all fit together in the end, because often it's one person leading an exhibition, and then everything else kind of comes after that, and is that a modern way of doing things? Is that realistic? You're never going to be able to represent as much when you only have one person's point of view at the top. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to try and gather all of that information and then disseminate it, and put it out there, but it seems to be, like you say, it's getting a lot of Post-it notes, so. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, so I think a traditional practice is more, someone has an idea, develops that idea, and then creates an exhibition out of it, and personally, that's how I'd be more comfortable doing it, because that's how I've always done exhibitions. It's not easy, it's hard, but it's familiar, whereas yes, working with a group, and being like, 'Right, so what do we want to talk about,' and trying to take that leap of faith when it isn't necessarily the avenue that you as an individual would go down, it is scary, and quite stressful. I think especially because when you work so closely with a group of volunteers for a long time, you feel quite responsible for them, and you want the work that you produce as a group to get a good reception for them. It's not just your work obviously, an exhibition is never just one person, but if the concept is predominantly led by one person, then you can take that on yourself, whereas if you're working with a group to develop that concept, you want it to work for them, but also yes, so the Post-it notes I think were an acknowledgement that you can never, in the exhibition space, look at the full content of whatever theme. However niche it is, there's always stuff you're not going to include, just by nature of interpretation. People don't read big panels, that's not accessible. That's totally fine, but it does mean that there's stuff that you miss out, and particularly with an exhibition where we've chosen such broad themes, so yes, the idea was there's space for people to share their stories and their thoughts within it, and build it that way. But yes, that was kind of the thought behind it. 

Meg: Yes. Catherine, what's your favourite object in the exhibition? 

Sara: I know this answer. 

Catherine Robins: Do you? It might be a different answer to what I said the other day. I always feel put on the spot and just choose something big. 

Sara: Okay, if in doubt, go big. 

Catherine Robins: Yes. Oh actually, I probably didn't say this the other day, because it wasn't in there. Now my favourite object in there is the plesiosaur. 

Sara: Good choice, good choice, yes. 

Catherine Robins: So yes, we've got this plesiosaur, which according to the interpretation label that I revised before I came in here, so all the interpretation for the theme that this sits in was written by one of our volunteers Jane. 

Sara: Shout out to Jane. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, shout out to Jane. So, this plesiosaur is from the Jurassic period, which is maybe about 200 million years ago, something like that. 

Meg: It's a long period of time, isn't it. You know when you're saying, you're like, about 60-200 million years, and you go, you can't say that, that's ridiculous. 

Sara: But not a dinosaur. 

Catherine Robins: No. Even though it's got saur in its name, it basically looks like a dinosaur, a lady came to the museum yesterday and asked me, do I have anything with dinosaurs, because my son loves them, and I gave her the plesiosaur. I didn't give it her, I told her where it was. I was like, not really, but this is it. 

Sara: Mate, Clare Brown will absolutely have you. 

Catherine Robins: I know, but also visitors matter, just going to say. 

Sara: Do they? No, they do. 

Meg: What a great takeaway. 

Catherine Robins: Do you know what, this woman looked like she was on the edge, and I was like, 'Just go and see the plesiosaur, he'll be well happy with it.' 

Meg: Also, do you know what literally blows my mind, that I don't understand, and we should get someone on to talk about this, fossils. Because it's so crazy that that, it's not the bones, is it? It's a fossilised skeleton. That's right, isn't it? 

Sara: You've put us on the spot here, and actually I thought it would be from the bones. It's like bones but really old. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, fossilised bones. 

Sara: It's still bones. 

Meg: No. 

Sara: What, does it just transform into another matter? 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: Right. 

Meg: Or it's like the compressed. 

Sara: Is it bits of mud with bones? 

Meg: It's bits of stuff, yes. I don't think there's bones in it. This is what I don't know. 

Sara: Has it changed the makeup of it, as time and science? 

Meg: No, I think it's something to do with stuff going on top of the bones, and then it's like a little mould. It creates a mould of this thing, and then they get it out. 

Sara: Okay. I don't know. I don't know. Not even taking the mick, I don't know. 

Meg: If anyone listening. 

Sara: Yes, probably maybe hopefully not people listening, because this is incredibly embarrassing we don't know what a fossil is. 

Meg: No it's not, it's not embarrassing, I literally don't know what a fossil is. I know it's really old, but I don't know. I want to know more about the actual process of having a fossil. Do you know what I mean? 

Catherine Robins: I learnt the other day that we have fossilised lightning in the collection. 

Sara: It's really good, isn't it. 

Meg: Fulgurite. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, I didn't know that was a thing before, and then I went down a five minute Wikipedia rabbit hole just trying to learn about it. It's so cool. 

Sara: It is very cool, because you'd never think you'd be able to touch lightning. Anyway, back to your favourite thing. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, sorry. Plesiosaur. 

Sara: Plesiosaur, yes, so you were rewriting the interp for it. 

Meg: By the way, I feel like we've said the word (TC 00:20:00) interp loads of times. Just for anyone listening who doesn't know what that means, that's literally like when you go into an exhibition or a display, anything that's written about it is interpretation so the way that the objects are interpreted or like the themes that you're looking at. 

Sara: The story behind it. 

Meg: Like when you read an object label or a panel arm (ph 20.15) exhibition. 

Sara: Or listen to an audio guide. 

Meg: Or an audio guide or a book or a podcast episode, imagine. Anyway, back to the label, you were just saying you were re-writing it before you came in here. 

Catherine Robins: Oh no, I was revising it. (talking over each other 20.33) Because I did not write them because Jane wrote them. 

Meg: Shout out to Jane once more, love you Jane. 

Catherine Robins: Oh no, I just (mw 20.38) my microphone. 

Meg: No it's alright, we can hear it. 

Catherine Robins: But yes, so we got the Plesiosaur conserved for the exhibition. 

Meg: It does look very very cool actually in place like in this beautiful frame and we went to see it being taken off the van and put into the museum and we all learnt that when Cuthbert Brodrick designed The Mechanics Institute which is now Leeds City Museum, he did not consider getting a small not-dinosaur through the doors. 

Sara: Also, it's so interesting because I've never like-, I don't think I've been around when there's been a delivery of an object going into an exhibition, they do it on skateboards, they move it on little tiny skateboards, it's sick. 

Meg: The technicians are just all cringing but yes. 

Sara: Literally, it's like, 'Oh, technicians use little tiny skateboards.' 

Meg: Can you tell us about Violet Crowther? 

Catherine Robins: I would say, Crowther. 

Meg: I would say Crowther because I really like crows. 

Catherine Robins: That is a legitimate reason to say that. (talking over each other 21.37) 

Meg: Also, me and Sara were talking about crows this morning, weren't we in the McDonald's car park. 

Sara: Yes, we were sat in McDonald's car park and Meg plays this game with her friend called raven or crow and she told me about it so we went raven or crow and they were eating something gross from the McDonald's car park. 

Catherine Robins: How do you tell the difference? 

Sara: I'm glad you ask, it's quite hard. I don't think there really is much of a difference but ravens are slightly bigger, like you'd think there was a difference but there isn't really so actually it's a really good game. I also think having absolutely no basis or foundation for this, crows feel more Northern and ravens feel quite London because of the Tower of London. 

Meg: Ravens feel quite sinister, quite dark. Also sorry just on sort of the last 200 years, what was the first object? 

Catherine Robins: I don't know the answer to that. One of the early objects was Nesyamun, the mummy which we got in 1824, I don't actually know what the first object was I'm very sorry. 

Sara: For god's sake. 

Catherine Robins: There's probably a whole bunch because I think when the society was established, the people who established it, it was a group of eminent men from Leeds and they all donated about £11,000 in today's money to, kind of, get the hall but also to collect some objects and yes, what they were collecting were things around, kind of, natural science and archaeology and what we now call world cultures. And they purchased quite a lot of objects I think in the first few years so maybe there was just a bunch of the first objects but I actually don't know in any specific detail, sorry. 

Meg: What is the timeline then, roughly? Roughly give me a timeline of the last 200 years but like, we started off as the Leeds Philosophical and Literary Society, is that right? 

Catherine Robins: Yes, so in 1819 or maybe it was 1818 they came together and had a meeting and decided that they were going to establish the Leeds Philosophical and Literary Society. 

Sara: That sounds like a productive meeting to be fair. (talking over each other 23.44) 

Catherine Robins: Like we're going to establish a whole society where we can appreciate the pursuit of knowledge and natural something, I can't remember the quote off the top of my head, anyway, they wanted to understand the work outside of Leeds more and to have a space to converse about that. 

Sara: God, why? 

Meg: The greatest city in the world. 

Sara: Why would you bother? 

Meg: I can't believe I got that in for you, I'm so pleased with myself. 

Catherine Robins: So yes, in 1819 they established the Leeds Philosophical and Literary Society and then in 1821 they opened the Leeds Philosophical Hall which is why now they're celebrating 200 years because it's 200 years since the Leeds Philosophical Hall opened and that's where they kept all their collections of good stuff and then later had talks about stuff. And then they did stuff, I keep saying stuff, for the next 100 years so things like talks, they opened up to the general public at some point for a penny because for quite a while it was only open to members and they were like 'oh actually we could-,' 

Sara: We could make a whole penny out of this. (talking over each other 24.47) Let the riff-raff in, which is about £600 in today's money. 

Catherine Robins: Then 1821 it passed over to-, 

Sara: Megan Jones. (talking over each other 24.59) 

Meg: Not Megan Jones. 

Catherine Robins: Congratulations on owning Leeds Museums & Galleries now. But yes, passed over to Leeds City Council 1821, 1921 even and at some point, then maybe late 1800s they got their first curator who carried on so it's been curated ever since then. 

Meg: Who was that? 

Catherine Robins: I want to say, Henry Denny. 

Meg: So Philosophical hall right, because Philosophical hall was the first building of Leeds Museums and Galleries on Park Row. Just for context for our listeners who don't know the history of the buildings and where it was and stuff, now not there, well Park Row is still there but full of banks. 

Sara: Isn't it HSBC now? 

Meg: Yes. And then what happened? 

Catherine Robins: In 1941, March 1941, 15th March, might be wrong. Leeds was bombed, there were lots of different parts of Leeds were bombed and damaged quite badly in the Blitz and one of the places that were bombed was Leeds City Museum so the bomb went through the roof of the museum, though I think the bird room and damaged the building very badly. 

Sara: All the crows. 

Catherine Robins: (talking over each other 26.14) I've never looked, maybe I'll go away and look and see if there were any crows in the collection at that time. 

Meg: Please do, please let us know. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, and damaged the building and lots of the collection, there were 2 people who were working there at the time who got buried under rubble but they weren't injured too badly, thankfully, which is good. 

Meg: And, sorry I don't know whose slamming doors, museum workers. That reminds me, yesterday it was really busy at Leeds City Museum, absolutely great, lovely, loved to see loads of visitors in there. But someone decided, a visitor, to shush everyone. That's not going to happen is it, we don't need to be quiet in here, also, my worst thing ever is, I think this is more of a thing in galleries actually, I don't like silence. Do you think the paintings are going to be offended? Yes, like why are we all being quiet? I don't like a gallery that gives off a vibe that you should be being quiet. 

Sara: It's an old-fashioned thing, isn't it? 

Catherine Robins: I have very strong feelings about that also if I go somewhere and it feels too quiet like if I'm not working, me and my partner have this thing, we'll go visit a gallery and if it feels too-, if we feel awkward being in there because it's just so quiet, we'll start just making up new titles for the paintings and things and start laughing and giggling so great game, I'd highly recommend. 

Meg: So lots of things were badly damaged and then what happened? 

Catherine Robins: Not a lot for ages, it went all into storage for ages what was left. I don't actually know what happened for a period of time, the space was re-built the frontage was sorted out, was that in the 1960s? 

Sara: I want to say 60's yes. 

Meg: Just back to the bombing, I remember putting up a blog written by some volunteers of a project they were working on about a notebook that was found in the rubble. 

Sara: I really wanted to say Barney Rubble. 

Meg: Inside Barney Rubble. 

Catherine Robins: Then they all got in a little car that they had to run with their feet and it was a great time. 

Sara: I watched the Flintstones the other day, a terrible film. 

Meg: Is it? I've not seen it. 

Sara: Yes, it's got Halle Berry in it, prime Halle Berry. She's going to be so chuffed with a shout out on this, isn't she? 

Meg: Anyway, go on. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, so that was actually a project led by Lucy, my job share so after the bombing somebody basically wrote a list of objects that had survived the bombing including those that were damaged in the bombing and so yes Lucy worked with a group of volunteers, there was a huge number of them actually. There was like 50 people or something and they transcribed this document so we could understand what objects were damaged or not through the bombing and obviously having the list of things that survived it we can compare it with earlier records. There used to be 3 mummies in the museum collection, 2 of them were damaged through the bombing like beyond saving so now we just have 1. 

Sara: Sad. 

Catherine Robins: Yes. 

Meg: There are all these little drawings and stuff in it, isn't there? like of objects and you can pair up the object he's banging on about by little drawings about how things were damaged. we're nearing the end Catherine. 

Sara: You'll be glad to know. 

Meg: As a project curator, what are you doing now? 

Catherine Robins: So we're still finishing off some stuff for the 200th but yes then we're developing our (TC 00:30:00) next project so the next project we're going to work on is looking at sporting heritage in Leeds. Haven't quite worked out exactly what that's going to look like but trying to find a way of capturing Leeds sporting heritage, I think that realistically we cannot collect an object from every single sports group that ever was in Leeds because our stores don't have enough space so probably some sort of films and interviews, photographs and stuff like that. 

Meg: I walk to work sometimes, so if you want anything from me let me know. 

Catherine Robins: Great. 

Meg: It's a long way. 

Sara: Sometimes, I do sport so if you need anything. 

Meg: Do you? 

Sara: No. 

Meg: You cycle don't you? Mate, that's sport. 

Sara: Yes, I do but I'm not giving you anything, sorry. 

Meg: Oh, rude. 

Sara: I know. 

Meg: Right well Catherine, here we go. what has been your favourite day at work since you joined Leeds Museums and Galleries? And actually that's kind of harsh because we have let people have their old jobs as well, no you can't have your old job, it's Leeds Museums and Galleries. 

Catherine Robins: Leeds Museums and Galleries or nothing. 

Meg: Come on. 

Catherine Robins: But I got to go to China in my old job, I've not got to go to China in this job so I guess if I can't have China. I've actually not been anywhere in this job because of lockdown. 

Sara: Yes, I was going to say you can't blame LMG for not going anywhere because of the whole pandemic thing. 

Catherine Robins: I think my favourite day was-, so when we were developing the exhibition, we had a very very tight timescale because of the pandemic not my project management, obviously. And we basically had three-hour sessions with the volunteers on site to shortlist objects for two themes per three-hour session and I was absolutely petrified before the first one because I was like 'oh my gosh, if we don't shortlist the objects in this time then there's no way we're going to meet the exhibition opening,' and I still don't really know what we're going to say for each theme. The first one, first of all it was amazing to be able to have the volunteers on site looking at objects because lockdown had been very long so that was just great but yes, we sat as a group looking at objects and the conversations-, I don't know why I thought they'd just be like, 'Yes we'll put that one in next,' but they were talking about how we could interpret them and what stories we were going to tell through them and just helped shaped the theme the exhibition a lot more past the object. And I think it was a sense of relief, overwhelmingly but also it was just amazing to be on site looking at objects and chatting. (talking over each other 32.43). 

Sara: Proud mother hen. 

Catherine Robins: Yes, kind of and a grateful mother hen. 

Meg: Yes, it is nice isn't it when you have that fear of going 'oh god I don't know if this is actually going to work and what the hell am I doing and I don't know what I'm doing anymore, who am I, where am I?' And then other people come through. Last question, it's a 2 fold, it's a really good one, it's my favourite. What's the big takeaway for our listeners about what you do? And by natural extension, what is your literal favourite takeaway? 

Catherine Robins: I think the biggest takeaway about what I do is, I work a lot with other people to or I hope a lot with other people to hear what they would like to do through this role. So have a rough idea about where we want a project to go, so like sporting heritage or 200 years but then work with lots of other people to shape what that might look like and how we can do that through events and talks and exhibitions and research and all that sort of stuff. And some spreadsheets. And my favourite takeaway, I love takeaway so Tuesday nights. 

Meg: Hasn't one of your neighbours actually called you out on this? And said don't you get takeaway everyday and you were like yes and what? 

Sara: Do you? 

Catherine Robins: Well, not everyday but yes. 

Meg: Some days are hard and you just need a takeaway. 

Catherine Robins: So we've moved to an area that has a lot of children and I think because Steve, my partner and I are like the new people on the estate, the kids are kind of interested in us, yes this little boy who is, I don't know, 9, said to me and Steve 'I swear you get takeaway like all the time.' He lives 2 doors away so I don't even know how he knows that. 

Meg: He is watching you, he is a curtain twitcher. 

Catherine Robins: So yes, there's a lot of takeaways for us to choose from because we get them a lot but our current favourite actually if I can drop a brand name in, a burger place which I think is in the market. 

Sara: Is it called McDonald's? 

Catherine Robins: No, but I did have their McPlant the other day which was good. 

Sara: We saw that advertised this morning, was it good? 

Catherine Robins: Yes, it was good. I might go for the KFC rather than the McDonald's (talking over each other 35.01) 

Meg: Have you had the Burger King one? 

Catherine Robins: No. 

Meg: Burger King one is banging, I had it in an airport in Barcelona and I was like, there must have been a translation issues because I'm sure this meat and low and behold it was not meat, it was delicious. My only thing with Burger King is that I think they put too much mayo in things. 

Catherine Robins: I don't think there's such a thing as a too much mayo. 

Meg: I didn't think there was a thing but there is, it's repulsive where there's just a river of mayo and it's all over your hands and it's greasy. 

Sara: I do love mayo. 

Catherine Robins: That's why you have a napkin. 

Meg: I don't bother with napkins. 

Catherine Robins: Well that's where you're going wrong isn't it. 

Meg: Anyway Catherine, sorry the place in the market. 

Catherine Robins: So yes, the place is either in the market or on Assembly Underground and it's called Burger One and they do like proper junk food burgers and they're so good, I really like the one that comes with some mayo and some fake cheese and some jalapeno's in there and I like to get that with a vegan strawberry milkshake and it is incredible satisfying. And they also do meat options for people who eat meat, so you can buy it with your meat eating friends. 

Meg: What was it called? Burger one? 

Catherine Robins: yes. 

Meg: I don't think we've had burgers before, have we? I think I said (inaudible 36.13) pickle burgers, did I? 

Catherine Robins: What do other people say? 

Meg: we've had an amazing response to this actually, and it's always kind of weird and quirky and independent or quite a few people like fish and chips which I think is super Yorkshire. We had 2 fish and chips last series, we had a Domino's. 

Catherine Robins: It's a good leveller isn't it? Food. 

Sara: People always get excited about it and it's really good that we do this at the end but also can you be that excited about museums as well please? 

Catherine Robins: It's a different kind of excitement isn't it? And also my stomach is already starting to rumble a bit so then I start thinking about food. 

Sara: I'll walk to the market and get myself a Burger One then. 

Meg: Catherine, thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest and coming on. 

Catherine Robins: Thank you for you having me, it was a ride. 

Meg: It's us we're back, we just, like, really sank bank in our chairs there as if it was, like, 'Right, aah.' 

Sara: It's really hard work just sitting here talking. 

Meg: God, it's so annoying just having to sit around and have really interesting conversations with people and get paid for it. 

Sara: Anyway, Catherine, what a lovely chat. 

Meg: I'm thirsty. 

Sara: Oh, for gods sake. All day, this is all I've heard from you is moaning. We drove from Leeds City Museum to Leeds Discovery Centre after doing our first promo video today which isn't far, I mean it's quicker to walk but Meg moaned like 3 times. 

Meg: Because I was thirsty and I was hungry and I hadn't eaten and I was cold. 

Sara: Welcome to my world, back to Catherine anyway. That was a good episode. 

Meg: Yes, you know what, Catherine is good isn't she. 

Sara: Yes, she is, she's lots of fun and she's one of these people who have really fun hobbies as well which really annoys me because I cant be bothered to have hobbies. 

Meg: Also, if anyone ever laughs at anything that I say, I love them and Catherine laughs at some things that I say so I feel like she's just so fantastic. Alright, what was your best learn then? 

Sara: My best learn was we asked Catherine what she asked for for the 200th birthday and she was so stumped by that question. 

Meg: It was a weird question. 

Sara: It was a weird question but she thought she had to answer it quite seriously and we were like no literally anything, you can have anything, it's your 200th birthday, it's a big deal. But turns out, she didn't know. So there we are, what was yours Meg? 

Meg: I feel like my favourite learn from that was that none of us know what a fossil is. 

Sara: Oh yes, that's embarrassing isn't it. 

Meg: Yes, I hope that our natural science curators are listening to this now thinking, good god how are they working here. But it's maybe it's made me feel less bad knowing that you guys also don't know. 

Sara: Anyway, back to things that we do know. We do know what there's another episode coming up after this one but first we need to do thanks. 

Meg: Oh, that was good. 

Sara: Smooth wasn't it? 

Meg: That was really good. 

Sara: She's warmed up, she's ready for chatting, I've sat back and just given up. 

Meg: Thank you to Al Finney for doing our cover work and converting it into lots of lovely formats as soon as we demand it, which is usually on a penny and thanks to Tim Bentley for doing the theme tune and thanks for everyone for listening, that's a good one isn't it. 

Sara: Thanks to you, the listener. 

Meg: If you could like, subscrive and rate the podcast, that would go down a treat and we'll send you a badge. 

Sara: And also if you want to talk to us you can, and why wouldn't you because we've been so delightful. 

Meg: We are an entire delight. I'm @MuseumMeg on Twitter and this stinker over here is @@SaraLMerritt 

Sara: And between us we are 

Meg: @LeedsMuseums 

Sara: Oh my god, what a smooth transition. Transcripts are on the website as well for all those people that like a read. 

Meg: I think we're done now. 

Sara: See you in the next episode. 

Meg: When we might be a bit (TC 00:40:00) friendlier to each other. 

Sara: I can't guarantee it. 

Meg: See you later. 

Sara: Bye.