Museums n'That
Museums n'That
You do whatever you want my darlin'
It's fashion, hun. This episode's guest is Vanessa Jones, one of our curators of Dress and Textiles at Leeds Museums and Galleries.
For our last episode of the series - can you believe! - we find out how to look fly as hell in the 1700s, why fashion sustainability is nothing new and what the deal is with historical sweat.
We also get deep - too deep? - into socks.
You can read Vanessa's blogs on Re-framing our dress and textiles collection on our website, where you can also explore the online Fast x Slow Fashion exhibition.
Listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.
Hiya.
Sara:Iya.
Meg:D'ya know why it said that I was in another meeting.
Sara:Why?
Meg:Because I was... I always set up my own meeting so I can check if I look all right.
Sara:Nice.
Meg:Hello, it's us. And welcome to the Museums n'That Podcast where each episode we have a chinwag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds museums and galleries. And we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. Seamless.
Sara:That was a really good one. Yeah.
Meg:Yeah, that was really good. Well done me.
Sara:Did you read it out that time?
Meg:Yeah, I did. Yeah. Anyway, Sara, here we go. The last one.
Sara:Here we ruddy go.
Meg:We've made it.
Sara:We've done it. And we have light on the horizon off of things maybe going back to some sort of normal ish, I don't know. Exciting.
Meg:Also, look at the way the sun is shining through onto my hairbun.
Sara:Beautiful.
Meg:Illuminating it.
Sara:That little twist.
Meg:Yeah I twisted it around like that like a little ponytail.
Sara:Right, so hi, how are you? Tell me one thing from your week as is the script.
Meg:This one's really good. I'm in such a good mood this morning. Right? Because I've got a new business idea. You know, when you hear stories of like, really genius people, they have these visions likr Florence, like Steph was telling us about Florence, they have these visions brought to them at night and basically...
Sara:I can't believe you're likening yourself to Florence Nightingale but I can. Go ahead.
Meg:It's a School of Rock themed shampoo and conditioner.
Sara:Okay.
Meg:And the conditioner is called... is peppermint. And it's called mint condish.
Sara:Okay, great.
Meg:That's it, why aren't you more excited?
Sara:Yeah, I think if we're gonna go on Dragon's Den, I'd need a little more, but excellent start. The shampers needs to have a bit of work, but...
Meg:Yeah I couldn't think of that but I've got, like so obviously we'd branch into other... We'd be really successful, branch into other kind of home wares, all that stuff, then getting some pipe cleaners and calling them Tamika's pipes.
Sara:Right, what I think is you've just taken random thing that you want to put a pun on their name related to School of Rock.
Meg:But how do we monetize it? Sara, how do I monetize that? My other one, my last one, which... So I text Errin about this at half six in the morning, by the way, she was really excited. So if you go to a restaurant and you order some sea bass, and it's on the menu, it's called cello you've got a bass.
Sara:Yeah, I think, um...
Meg:Mink condish!
Sara:There's something there.
Meg:It's there and it's not going away. Let me tell you. Go on. Tell me about you. But make it good. Because that is just I know it's tough act to follow but...God.
Sara:It's food related. So we went to Sabroso Street in Farsely and it was very delicious. We had different types of tacos. So there were beef ones and chicken ones and fish ones very, very good. And cauliflower ones. And I liked the cauliflower ones, except it didn't tell me that there was pineapple in it. And I have an issue with that because I don't like hot pineapple on things but otherwise very good. And a sweetcorn chowder was very delicious. Yeah, so that was nice because I'm really not a big cook and having other people make stuff for me is pretty much everything.
Meg:You are though. Right, this one time Sara came into work and she bought some eggs in that she'd made and they were like mirin eggs.
Sara:That's just like soft boiled eggs that have been just sat in in like a miso soy mirin little mix for a bit.
Meg:If you're not good at cooking, you don't bring that into work do you.
Sara:I suppose not. I think it's what I feel comfortable within my repertoire. Right. So who are we speaking to today?
Meg:Oh, today. Today, today, today. We have got Vanessa Jones. Vanessa is our assistant curator of dress and textiles. And she's also one of my best friends actually.
Sara:Fun fact.
Meg:Lucky her. Vanessa suffers my questions the most at work. I think if I get if I get a whiff of her being downstairs in the store, I will follow her and I will just bang on and she really is very patient with me. So I think she's going to be good. But what are we talking to her about Smez because I feel like dress and textiles is a wide...
Sara:It's a big one, isn't it? We've picked 18 century. Loads to go at. So very excited for this one. (a bark). Dimple, don't yell.
Meg:So's Dimple. Loves it. Dimple heard my mint condish idea and she wants in. Dimple's Den. I want to know what would happen if I went back in time to the 1700s What would I wear and how do you keep it how do you preserve it and all that stuff. I want to find out all about that.
Sara:Yeah, fascinating stuff. Let's go.
Meg:Let's go. Let's crack on. Here we go! Our last in the series. Vanessa Jones' episode of Museums n'That. Enjoy it!
Sara:Here she is.
Meg:There she is that little head.
Sara:Excellent.
Vanessa:Hi guys. How are we?
Meg:Good, are you okay?
Vanessa:I'm good.
Meg:Are you feeling nervous?
Vanessa:Yeah I'm literally so nervous.
Meg:Just for the benefit of our listeners, Vanessa has been messaging me about being nervous. And the last thing you said to me I've just looked on my laptop was, I am dead in capital letters. And also, I'm going to go cut my fringe.
Vanessa:Yeah, yeah. Well, I just did a little trim here.
Meg:Please, could you tell our lovely listeners who you are and what you do?
Vanessa:Yeah I am Vanessa Jones. I work at predominantly Leeds Discovery Centre, and I'm the assistant curator of dress and textiles.
Meg:Do you ever try stuff on?
Vanessa:No. I don't. Sorry.
Meg:Do you ever want to try stuff on?
Vanessa:Like literally never. I've never been like, I've never got something out and been like I really want to wear that. Never.
Meg:What like not even like, jewellery?
Vanessa:I don't really look after jewellery. I don't know whether it's because maybe it's because I know that like that thing has a history. You know?
Sara:And you feel like you're gonna soil it with your modern day body?
Vanessa:Yeah, exactly. With my body. Yeah. My disgustingness.
Sara:Yeah, cuz like, I suppose then the interpretation would read like, beautiful 18th century lace gown previously worn by so and so. And more recently worn by Vanessa Jones.
Vanessa:Exactly. They used to try things on like, all the time. Obviously, we don't anymore. But you know, there's images, which show like people wearing like 18th century 19th century garments.
Meg:What like curators?
Vanessa:Yeah, I think it's just curatorial practice has changed so much over the last, you know, 30 years, four years. We wouldn't want to do that now. But obviously, back then it was kind of like, yeah, Alright, fine. I'll try this dress on why not?
Meg:Every time I see on TV, a curator talking about a dress or like an archaeologist has just dug up a ring or something and they're talking about it, I'm like, you definitely put that on. You definitely definitely put that on. And it's like the one thing that I really want to know. And I'd be such terrible curator, because I literally would just put stuff on all the time.
Vanessa:I don't know. I think it's it's like a really common thing that visitors think. Like I've even been at Leeds like I've had someone write like a letter to us saying, Oh, me, my friend really interested in like x, y and Z? Can we please come come to what we think is the Discovery Centre and try things on and it's like, no, you can kind of see things and I can show you things and like you can you know, you can handle some stuff. But unfortunately, no, you can't try things on. I don't really know why. Like people think that you can I don't maybe everyone used to try things on in the past.
Sara:I find it weird though. I find it like a bit disconcerting, especially stuff that's really old. Because A, what if you break it and B, that person is definitely dead. And there's something a bit weird about it. Like I'm totally cool. I love going to charity shops and I don't really care about the background of that stuff. But it has a different feeling when it's something in the museum, which I suppose is the point. I think that's weird that you would want to try everything on Meg, that kind of creeps me out a bit.
Meg:Mate, I literally whenever I have like, when I've had like a bad day, I put on some Kylie get a glass of wine and go and try on... like I know what all the outfits are, but I will just try it on anyway and it will make me feel better.
Sara:Oh, absolutely not. No, I will just look at myself and go well, lockdown really hasn't treated you that well Sara. You definitely can't fit into all of these clothes anymore.
Vanessa:Yeah, there's, there's a massive like discourse around like haunted, not haunted as in like ghostly but kind of this like descriptive word of, you know, dress in museums being kind of like ghostly and haunting and kind of like uncanny. Because of those things that you were describing. Like I think people find it kind of bit weird, a bit strange, a bit spooky that you know, someone wore this, You know, if we do know a lot about the history of that person that's worn it. It's kind of like a bit a bit strange. And actually the way in which we, you know, we mount mannequins and things like that they are still, which obviously, on a moving body, you wouldn't be still so it's kind of like this weird, spooky thing, which I don't really know much about. But yeah, as I say there's like a massive discourse.
Sara:All right, that's not one of our questions.
Meg:I've got literally like, I've got literally so many questions to ask you off the back of this though. But I'm thinking about objects in the collection who we know belong to certain people. We have a collection from a guy called is it Kenneth Sanderson? Yeah. And he had 18th century clothes. Is that right?
Vanessa:Yeah, yeah. So he Yeah, collected dress and textiles. And by 1949 we had bought his collection or he donated I can't quite remember. So yeah, the majority of our 18th century collection, Not all of it, but the majority is made up of his kind of collection, which is amazing because you kind of have provenance up to a certain point. But we know that Kenneth Sanderson had it, you know, in the 40s, but we don't know anything more than that. So yeah, he's like one of our biggest donors of 18th century stuff. But he also had like, 19th century stuff as well. And slightly later stuff.
Meg:Would he like, wear... So you know how like that things come back in trend. So like 90s fashion is like having a resurgence whatever now. So like, with Kenneth Sanderson was that like, in the 1940s? Was he like, the 1700s? Like, that's cool now, and would he wear it?
Vanessa:Yeah. So there's like, there's photographs of him wearing things, I think the most, I guess, viewed image and the only one I know of, is him wearing like a banyan, which is a 18th century, informal indoor coat, almost like a dressing gown. It's the one that people always get out at a Discovery Centre on tours, it's silk, and it's embroidered with like butterflies and flowers. And it would have been a Chinese export. So it would have come from China, gone to France to be made into a banyan, and then it would eventually come come over to the UK. But yeah, I don't think he was really wearing it because there's like a resurgence or that trend is back, I think that he was just quite flamboyant, which I think is kind of I mean, not normal. I don't know how normal that is for a collector to do. But I think if you're like a private collector, you don't necessarily need to worry about the things that we would worry about in a museum. So in terms of like conservation, and like preventative conservation, I wouldn't try something on in our collection, because I might break it, or I might damage it. Whereas if you're a private collector, and you've paid, you know, why not try it on? I guess it's yours.
Sara:I think that's interesting, because have you seen recently I've been getting adverts for it. And me and Meg talked about it as well. There are companies that are making like coats out of quilts. And they look incredible but also absolutely ridiculous. Like if I walked down the street in Yorkshire, my goodness.
Meg:I literally want one.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Meg:I'm literally saving up.
Sara:But they're so expensive, but they're made out of quilts. But yeah, just I think he reminded me of that because that was the first thing I thought of when I saw him wearing the banyan. And I was like, people love wearing quilts and big dressing gowns.
Meg:I feel like, this is a thing. This is a theme that I have... god, circling back. But this is really a thing that we've thought about this series of the podcast like you forget that history is more than just the things that we discovered now or the way that we look at it now. And it's like, obviously, people like in the 1940s or 1900s 1800s were, like thinking about and collecting fashion from 100 years before 200 years before because that's what we're doing now. But I know but like it's so silly that I've never really like stopped and really thought about that before. But Veej right. So 1700s I am a lady. I'm quite well to do maybe going to court, what am I wearing?
Vanessa:Um so if you're like super, super fancy.
Meg:Oh I am.
Vanessa:So fancy. You might be wearing a Mantua. Or To be fair, it depends what period, you could have been wearing like a robe funnel, where we don't have in our collection, but they're super rare and super valuable.
Meg:I absolutely love that you're just saying these words as if I literally know what they are. A mantua?
Vanessa:Okay, so a mantua, you will know what it is if I describe it. So a mantua goes out like this at your waist. And is really big. And a mantua is kind of symbolic of being wealthy because there's so much extra fabric that goes into making like such a big dress. So you have a kind of very flat front, because that was popular at the time to kind of elongate your figure. And then at your hips, they will just kind of poke out like...
Meg:Oh my god, I wish you could see what Vanessa just did. She did the worst dance I've ever seen.
Vanessa:Oh my god, why are you mocking me? That was amazing. And so yeah, and so the kind of wider the kind of, you know, more money you have is one theory. Alongside that you would have been wearing like a pair of stays, which would maybe I should start from the bottom. You know, up, maybe I should just start with your underwear and then we can we can work on that.
Meg:You do what you like my darlin'.
Sara:There's the title.
Vanessa:Yeah, so you might have been wearing like a pair of stays, which is basically a another word for like a corset, and these would have been fastened at the back. And you might have like a stomacher.
Meg:You've shown be one of them before and it kind of looks like an ironing board.
Vanessa:Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's kind of like triangular. You would be wearing panniers which are you know, like, if you're riding a bike and you have like a saddle bag on the back of your bike that they're called pannieres that basically supports the weight and the kind of overall effect of your Mantua gown, which is that sticky outy bit at the hip that I was talking about earlier.
Sara:And you can put things in it?
Vanessa:Not that bit. But your pockets, you could. So many, many layers.
Sara:Did they always have pockets?
Vanessa:So you would have a separate pocket, which is basically like a sack, which you tie around your waist? Or your hip? Why are you laughing at me?
Sara:Waist sack.
Vanessa:It's like little sack, and we've got loads in the collection. I would love to show you them.
Meg:Oh, my gosh, have we?
Vanessa:Yeah, we've got loads.
Meg:I have a question about this, but I'll let you finish. Imma let you finish.
Vanessa:Cheers hun. The pocket is separate, and you tie it around your waist. And then where your petticoat or your gown skirt was, there will be slits that your hands could go into. And that's how you would get into your pocket.
Sara:Smart, isn't it because I I get in trouble for leaving keys, car keys, you know, passport, whatever, in various pockets of items of clothing that I own. But if I have one pocket that I just transfer to each item I'd never have that issue.
Meg:Veej as someone that that is working with historic dress all the time, and dealing with pockets, because everyone gets excited about pockets literally now, like when you find pockets, or something gets donated for the first time. Have you ever like found things in pockets?
Vanessa:Yeah, so I haven't at Leeds actually. But in other roles I've had. We have found like things like receipts for things. We found like bus ticket laundry, receipts, I guess you'd call it you know, if you take something to a laundrette. Pins as well have been found in pockets.
Meg:Also, a question has literally just popprf into my head, that I don't know whether this is a really silly question. But I've just had this thought, right? So you know how like if there's clothing from the 1700s? I'm already embarrassed. Right so clothing from the 1700s. Or, like, my brain can't really fathom where that's all gone. So like, there were literally loads of people, and they were all wearing clothes, are all of those clothes in museum collections. like where have they gone? And like, like, you know, when people die? And they're in coffins are all of the clothes just in coffins?
Vanessa:Oh, my God, I don't know. Good question. I think, yeah, maybe that's not that's probably a question for Kat. But in terms of like survival rates of garments, we predominantly only see like upper class people's clothing within collections in this period, because clothes were so expensive, people would frequently like upcycle them and reuse them. So if, for example, you had a dress that no longer fitted, you might repurpose that into a tablecloth, or something like that, which is why we don't have huge kind of quantities of 18th century garments. But in saying that, there are a lot of 18th century garments in collections. And it's just that there's, you know, their survival rate is less than obviously something that was mass produced in the 20th century, or produced on a much kind of quicker basis in the 19th century. Does that make sense? I think, yeah, it's interesting, because I think 18th century garments are kind of spoken about as though they're quite scarce. And they are, they're not everywhere. But I would almost guarantee that if you typed into eBay, like 18th century gown, there would be one on there. I know that isn't what you asked me, but I've just gone off on one.
Meg:What I asked you was literal nonsense so don't worry about it.
Sara:What I love about it is Meg says, a question has just popped into my head, it isn't a question. It's a half formed idea that comes into being as she's talking. That's what we love her for so it's fine.
Vanessa:It's good. It's, it's a good, it's, you know, it's a good observation to make, the more you kind of study and the more you look at 18th century garments, the more you kind of see how a lot of them in some way or another have been like altered or changed or adapted. They've been used for fancy dress in the 19th century, which was, you know, a very popular thing. And then again, kind of in the early Edwardian period.
Sara:With that then, the 18th century, was it quite a turning point for the fashion industry. Obviously, it was the time of industrial revolution, and cloth making was you know, colours would have started to arise and there'd be more variety, and we'd have more access to different types of materials. And so I suppose what, what did it do for the industry? Sort of in that time, it was quite a massive period of change.
Vanessa:Yeah, so I think I guess this kind of refers to the exhibition, doesn't it a bit, so obviously in the 18th century, You would have kind of independent businesses that would do very specific things. So you might have a tailor who would make a suit you might have, well, you did have a shoemaker. So into the 19th century, although you obviously still have these people who are specialists in these certain areas, there's the introduction of shops where you can buy everything, at least by you know, the middle of the 19th century, in terms of colour and things like that. I think, in the 18th century, I think, you know, cloth was travelling across the across the world, we were getting cloth from China, silks, particularly, like muslin was coming from India, which is like a really light cotton. So that this kind of idea of kind of like a global trade market is already very much established in the 18th century actually. And actually, I don't really know about dyes, I think dye colours really only kind of kicked off properly in Britain in the 19th century, so in the 1800s, and you see, like, Perkins purple, which has a really vibrant purple colour. And you see like that really that really vivid green as well, which again, is, I think, 1860s 1870s.
Meg:Also, just to say here on on you talking about, like global trade, Vanessa wrote a really good blog earlier this year, or the end of last year, about about the transatlantic slave trade, and the kind of connection it has to cotton and things that were made from it that we now have in our collection. So I'll pop a link to that in our episode description so you can read it because it's great. And so just going back to, like the idea of repurposing, I know, when we've been in the store, and you've shown me some like shoes from that time, and like some dresses from the 1700s and 1800s. And they've like I've never noticed it before because I feel like you could you always assume that objects when they're on display or like dresses in a museum collection are always kind of immaculate. I always assumed that they're really clean, really immaculate. And you kind of show me for the first time or like pointed out where they weren't like where they've been mended. I kind of got the feeling that that's like your best thing like reusing and like that people. Is it darning?
Vanessa:Thanks, Meg. That's so sweet of you to say I'm glad I showed you something different? Yeah, I think I think why I'm interested in the 18th century, particularly is like I was kind of saying earlier, all 18th century garments, unless they have a really strong kind of provenance that kind of explains that they were from someone that wasn't upper class, are always described as being...
Meg:Sorry, that was my phone. Wasn't even anything good. Go on.
Vanessa:Yeah clothes are often described as being worn by the upper classes. And I think this is predominantly because it's an easy thing to say, like I was saying before, like if you don't have very much money, and you can repurpose a gown and make it into a smaller gown for someone else, or you can reuse it, you would much rather do that than have to go and spend money on more cloth. But that isn't always the case. And I think what I'm yeah, like you picked up on like, I think what I'm really interested in is finding garments that kind of tell these more everyday stories, because I think that's why 18th century is sometimes a challenge for visitors to kind of engage with. And I know this is something that we've spoken about before, I think maybe you saw when we were thinking about fast fashion and what images to include, and you - I can't remember, I can't remember who it was who said it- and it's kind of stuck with me that that our visitors kind of struggle to engage with the older, more historic pieces. And I think the reason for that is, is that we always kind of talk about them as though they are from a wealthy background, or the person that wore them were really rich, and they had servants and they lived in a massive country manor, like no one lives like that really anymore. So how can we kind of interpret our objects so that people can then kind of relate to them. And I think this idea of repurposing and remaking and even just like showing, you know, things that are dirty, or things that have actually, you know, signs of wear, that's kind of like an embodied experience that other people can relate to, you just have to show them and pick it out. You know, obviously, I look at dresses all the time and other garments all the time. So I can kind of see and identify these things. But if you're not doing that you don't always see it.
Sara:In in terms of the collection, then, what's something other than finding out about these stories in terms of an actual piece. Is there anything that you find like really fascinating from our collection? Or maybe even like wider, you know, from a bigger national collection or anything? Is there anything that you'd be like, Oh, yeah, I really want to get my hands on that.
Vanessa:Well I... with gloves, yeah. I really like the 1770s gown that we exhibited in the fast x slow fashion exhibition. So that was around the 1770s originally it would have been made. And then it was remade in the 1830s 1840s. And we don't know, who wore it originally why it was, you know, remade in the way it was, like, why was it kept for so long until it was remade? So yeah, that's I think, for me, that kind of object really tells that nice story of upcycling and not not really repurposing because, you know, it's still being worn as a gown. But certainly, you know, this idea of recycling and sustainability, which is a massive buzzword, I think, at the moment in like fashion, fashion studies, whether you're looking at like contemporary fashion, or fashion marketing or whatever it is you're doing, I think, yeah, sustainability is, is definitely very popular a the minute.
Sara:How could you tell that it had been remade?
Vanessa:So with this, one of the big signs is obviously, like the overall shape of the garment. So that garment looks like a garment from 1835 say, but the textile is much earlier. So you know, if that textile and not as a dress, but if the textile was made in 1770s, you know, was it then kept and made into an 1835 ish gown? Or was it upcycled. And the more you look inside a garment, the more it kind of reveals. So with this garment, you can see, there's like tiny, tiny box pleats, that are all all the way around, you can see where the stitches originally would have been. I'm doing that thing where I'm trying to show you with my hands, which won't translate very well. So where you have like these tiny box pleats, the box pleats have kind of been... Oh god I don't know how to say it it's so hard. Just look at the photo on the website. So the waist is much smaller, there we go, I'm there. So where the box pleats were originally, they kind of really overlap one another, the skirt of the gown would have been much bigger, but they've kind of shrunk the waist down and resewn it so that the box pleats are almost like literally on top of one another. And also things like the sleeves have been have been altered. And you can see that from like the stitches where the stitches used to be, and where they've been like unpicked and things like that.
Meg:I guess the thing is, and this is probably more of like a panic to do with clothes that are like linked to a famous person or like a monarch or something like that, and potentially not something that we necessarily have in our collection, but just generally in terms of like collecting old historic garments, like what's your take on like how you preserve like the history and like the integrity of the clothes and like the stains that are on there. So like say like Queen Victoria at the v&a. They've got lots of Queen Victoria's clothes, like the sweat stains and the stuff on on that that is like from Queen Victoria's body, right? That's part of the history of the garment. If you clean that garment, you make sure it doesn't degrade for longer. So we've got it for longer, but then are you washing away all the history of it?
Vanessa:Lovely question. Lovely, lovely question. I personally, I think that unless like you say, unless it's going to mean that the deterioration process of the garment is kind of made a lot faster. I don't see any issue with having stains on garments, because like you say, that is the history of garment and kind of to remove that is almost masking this more every day, kind of understanding and interpretation of the garment that we're looking at. So I can't really think of anything that's actually... we do have some horrendous stuff. And we've got some men's tunic like men's jackets, and they're called waistcoats, but they're not how we would think of a waistcoat. And they're from like, the early 1700s. If you look at them, you can see like the sweat patches, like the the sleeves themselves are kind of like fraying like they're not in particularly good condition. But it begs the question, like what has happened to these clothes? Like, is this original to the 1700s? Or was this one later? What is actually the liquid that has been spilled? Or is it like you were saying earlier? Is it sweat? I don't know. And if you clean that off, and if you mend it, you know, you're kind of removing that history of the garment, I guess. And actually, what's really nice about LMG is that, you know, we clean things if we think they need it, but certainly in terms of like mending things. So for example, if we put something on display, it needs to be in a certain condition so that we know that it won't deteriorate on the mannequin. So it needs to be able to support itself and the conservation work that we get done is always like kind of the least we could do to the garment as it is. So for example, if the inside of a lining needed to be mended, we wouldn't strip the lining and kind of remake it. You know, we do it in a way that says, Okay, this silk has shattered, which means it's like falling apart, basically, we're going to use like a mesh lining, so you can still see that silk and you can still see that it is shattering. And people in the future will be able to look at that and say, oh, okay, that's conservation. Other kind of national museums will actually so for example, the 1770s dress that we were just talking about, they would actually take those stitches out and make it back to the original. So really interesting, because that's how the gown would have looked, but then you're losing this kind of, you know, 70 year period.
Meg:It's like putting, it's like saying that the value is on the how old... how old it is. So it's like the oldest one counts.
Vanessa:And I think it's also about again, like you were saying Meg like this idea that everything in the museum is pristine. And that's not true, basically, is just not true at all. I think it's it's like a quite an archaic idea.
Sara:Well yeah it's humanising the collection, that's all it is. And that's exactly what it's about. And I think if you start, you know, the objects don't care, what are we protecting them or people from? And if anything, you know, surely you should be doing it the other way around. So this dress is a perfect example, we could go away, beautifully reconstruct the original version of the dress, either in real life or, you know, virtually whatever. And people could see that. And so you've got best of both worlds, then, surely, but I think people relate so much more to the fact that, oh, this was something and now it's something else. I feel like I relate to that so much more, even though I would never wear anything like that. And that's never going to come around in fashion again. It just seems it's not anyone's right to take that history awa, I don't think and that is a massive, that's a massive issue, like generally across the sector. And I suppose even more about like rewriting history, but just telling it as it is there, there is no harm in that.
Vanessa:I think, yeah, there's just like hang up from from, you know, curatorial practice of the last 100 years, basically, of what a curator is what curator does and what they should know, basically. And yeah, you know, that's, that's definitely changing, there are shifts and massive shifts across, you know, across the board.
Meg:And ain't that the tea. So like, looking at the questions that I had written down, like a lot of them are stain based. And one of the questions that I've always wanted to know is like, with women's clothing, do you get a lot of like blood stains, because there's that scene in Bridgerton, where, like, the main woman gets her period when she's at the opera. And it's like a big scene and I'm like, that must happen all the time with historic clothing. Like, surely that happens all the time.
Vanessa:Sorry the dog's waking up. God damn it.
Meg:Oh my god she's been there the whole time.
Vanessa:Yeah sleeping. stains. Do you know what? Something that I've seen definitely did have blood on the skirt? Yeah, I can't remember anything more about that. annoyingly.
Meg:Okay. My other question about stains? Is anyone ever done? Can you do like, could you do like DNA analysis on a piece of clothing? Like, you know, there's like people who are like, hey I'm related to the queen or like, I'm related to Charles II, like, can you do like DNA lab analysis on stains? Have you ever had any enquiries from people about that?
Vanessa:I literally have no idea. Good question. Good question. And I know that there are a few people who are doing like forensics stuff with clothes. So Emma Pritchard and Alison Matthews Davis is also looking at that. So like looking at historic clothing in relation to like crime and things like that, but I literally have no idea whether you could could do that Meg sorry. I'm not the gal to ask.
Meg:The only other question I had on my list is have people always worn socks? She's thinking about it.
Vanessa:I'm really thinking about it. No, I don't think so. Well, no.
Meg:Wow. I've really stumped you.
Vanessa:I literally have no idea. I think maybe, yes, I'm gonna say maybe a bit. Like, you know, if you were super wealthy in the 18th century, you would wear stockings. But then you also have like hand knitted socks. And I'm also just trying to think of like archaeology and whether to they find socks in like, I don't know. Where's Kat? Kat! Paging Kat.
Sara:It's annoying. It's one of those things like you know, the Easter eggs in film especially. Where like they never say bye on the phone and stuff like that, you never see people putting socks on in period dramas.
Vanessa:I think people always had socks to a certain extent.
Sara:They seem like a really easy thing to like make. Having never made a sock. Actually, that's a lie. I did start making a sock. It looks like a horse's hoof cover.
Vanessa:Oh my god. Amazing. Can I google? I literally want to know so bad.
Meg:Yeah. I want to know now as well.
Vanessa:Oh my god. Okay, eight century BC. Ancient Greeks wore socks.
Meg:Made of what? Like a pig's bladder or something?
Vanessa:Oh my god, stop. Um, I don't know. I guess it would have been like organic materials. Yeah. It'd be like animal hair or something. Delicious. Sorry that I didn't just know that.
Meg:Now you do.
Vanessa:Can't know everything, guys.
Sara:Generally in collections. Is there way more women's clothing than men's?
Vanessa:Oh, question. Yeah, very topical question. Generally, yes, there is more women's clothes, than men's clothes. Actually at Leeds we are quite not unusual. I suppose we are kind of unusual in that we have we do have quite a lot of tailoring, obviously, because of Leeds tailoring industry.
Meg:Shout out to Leeds, greatest city in the world.
Sara:Oh my god you haven't done that this series yet.
Meg:I haven't done it. Yeah.
Vanessa:And so yeah, predominantly, collections are made up of more womenswear than menswear. And I think when... Did you hear that? She wants to go out for a wee. So do I mate, gonna have to wait.
Meg:I'm gonna leave that in.
Vanessa:Please do. I'm not going to actually go outside with her to wee, by the way, like I will go to the toilet while she is in the garden that she can now freely roam. And anyway, I think when collections of dress and textiles started to be a thing. People predominantly collected based on the fabric, it wasn't necessarily about the garment itself. So for example, you might see like a few waistcoats and collections like old 1700 waistcoats, for example. Just because of like the embroidery and the skill that's involved in that. And so because of that menswear kind of wasn't... was kind of neglected. In fact, last year, there was a really big conference, all about menswear.
Meg:I love that she just wants to be on Museums n'That.
Vanessa:Yes. So it's only in the last couple of years that men's wear, people are kind of focusing more on it. Which is interesting, because you know, women's history has been neglected forever. But there's loads of studies, obviously, books on on menswear, but it's predominantly womenswear in collections.
Meg:Okay, so
Vanessa:Yeah babe.
Meg:Yeah babe. Brilliant. So we've reached the part of the pod where I knew... Sorry, I tripped then because I nearly said part of t'pod. But I'm glad I didn't. But there we go. Anyway, you're a listener Veej so you should know what's coming. First question is what has been your favourite day at work?
Vanessa:Ah, my God. I can't even remember being at work. When was I last in work?
Sara:What is work?
Vanessa:What is work? My favourite day? Do you know what, when we did scissor lift training? That was a really good day for me that because...
Meg:That's the same as Adam Jaffers.
Vanessa:Predominantly because I can't drive and I was like, I'm going to crash this. And then I didn't and I was actually quite good. So yeah, good day for me.
Meg:That is so interesting, because that was also his reason it was about not being able to drive and part of me really thinks that both of you just should learn to drive.
Vanessa:It's like this massive overhang in my life. Like a constant niggle.
Sara:So final question is, from what we've talked about today, can you do a little sum up, a takeaway snippet of information and that you want to want our listeners to know?
Vanessa:Yes I can.
Sara:It can be anything.
Vanessa:Oh, no, I'll just give like a synopsis of today's pod. So today, listeners, we've been chatting all about kind of garments in the Leeds museums and galleries collections. We've specifically been looking at the 18th century, and a lot of attention has been kind of on every day, garments or everyday stains or everyday repurposing of garments.
Meg:Cute. I feel like you've just done our episode description there Veej. Thank you very much.
Vanessa:That's what I'm here for no worries.
Sara:Yeah. And on that note, what's your actual favourite literal takeaway?
Vanessa:I knew this was coming. Literally every day is a different day for me. Like you, you know, I love fish and chips some days. Other days not so much. I think right now. Right now I would have to say like Japanese you know? Whoa. cheeky? Yeah, yeah.
Meg:What is your order?
Vanessa:I always get katsu tofu. Sorry It's so boring with vegetable gyoza.
Meg:Luckily you said gyoza right unlike Chris who pronounced it goyza. Remember that?
Sara:Yeah, that was weird, wasn't it?
Meg:Yeah. And I'm still still thinking about that literally a year later.
Vanessa:Please can I ask you guys a question?
Meg:This isn't how it works, Vanessa.
Vanessa:I know. Yeah, I'm, I'm literally taking over. Sorry. What is your least favourite takeaway? Whoa, Mic drop. But I'm actually going to stay because I want to hear.
Sara:Mine is and this is controversial. But it's it's Indian, because it makes me feel really poorly.
Vanessa:Oh my god bless you.
Sara:Yeah, I just find it quite overwhelming. Like, I know Kat Bax really loves it. And I do enjoy curry too. But it massively makes me anxious. If you know in previous times when we were out to go out with work people and be like, right, we're going out for a curry and drinks, I'd be like I can't because I can't do both. I will have to go home because I will feel poorly.
Vanessa:That's so sad. But you know what, though? I do feel like the curry before a night out is literally the worst idea.
Meg:We did that once, do you remember that?
Sara:So filling.
Meg:Mine I think... I reckon Japanese might be... I would never get a Japanese takeaway I'd always go out. I'd always go out for it. I don't I think it's too healthy for a takeaway for me. And also I think Chinese.
Sara:I see it yeah.
Meg:Because so obviously, love Leeds. Love living life in Leeds. But I don't think that Leeds has done Chinese well.
Vanessa:Yeah I would agree.
Meg:So there's Wens which is amazing. But they don't do like delivery. But that's the only like, really primo Chinese place like there's one at the end of my road. I got once when I was really drunk. And I've got a picture of it somewhere just put on a plate and it was all just like yellowy brown miscellaneous textures with like yellow brown sauce. Yeah.
Vanessa:Oh my god.
Meg:I just don't think yeah, I think the only thing Leeds is lacking in is Chinese.
Vanessa:I would agree. I would definitely agree.
Meg:Veej that's really thrown me. I feel like no one ever asks us questions.
Vanessa:Well, that's why I thought I would ask I feel bad for you guys. I mean, I don't feel bad for you. You love doing this.
Meg:Oh, we love it.
Vanessa:It's your thang. Um, but you know, I just just wanted to...
Sara:Appreciate it.
Meg:What a little prince.
Sara:Are they birds? Can I hear birds?
Meg:Yeah you can. They're my mates you know. They're my mates. I sit outside to do work sometimes and I do just end up staring at the staring at the hedge because there's like three different birds. And then I send Clare Brown and Milo pictures of them to identify them. Working in museums can be handy. God, I can't believe this is the last bit.
Sara:The last bit of the last one of the last series. No not the last series.
Meg:No, God.
Sara:Last one of series three. You're doing something with your microphone.
Meg:I'm pulling off little hairs.
Sara:Okay, good. I love talking to Vanessa Jones because she's got so much stuff in her head about clothes. And I'm always torn on clothing. I know you love clothes, and I go through periods of being like, yeah, I'm really into it. And then periods of I just care about what's practical, but actually, I've taken a real stamp on trying to buy better for longer and you know, not buying as much to not waste and things. I think it's doing me well. But anyway, great episode. Thanks, Vanessa.
Meg:Yeah, had lots of lots of questions. I think I just every time I put on clothes, which is mostly every day, I do think about it. And I'm like, Well, I think the thing that confuses me- we need to get her back - I do find it confusing that like, where are all the clothes? Do you know what I mean, like, where are all the clothes that everyone's ever worn?
Sara:Well, unfortunately, I think there's a lot in landfill. I think other than socks with holes in I don't think I chuck anything away. It goes to charity because it can be repurposed. And a lot of companies are doing that now which I think is really good. H&M is pretty good at that. And you know, there are plenty of places out there that you can take stuff back to and they give you a little voucher.
Meg:Speaking of socks, though, that's your best bit isn't it.
Sara:It is my best bet. I am fascinated by the simplest things. And so you know, when we were chatting about if people have always worn socks like they've always worn something on their feet because I always have cold feet. And you know, I love socks. So does everyone else?
Meg:Do you know what I was thinking actually I watched Twin Peaks yesterday, I've started watching Twin Peaks, never seen it before, and the guy in it wears those little like belt around his ankles for his socks, do you know what I mean? You know that men do that in old in films. What's that about? Yeah, just wear buy socks that stay up?
Sara:Or don't worry about it so much?
Meg:Just relax.
Sara:There's a couple of solutions there, neither of which should cause you that much distress that you need additional, what are probably leather and elastic elements to hold them up.
Meg:Yeah, calm down.
Sara:Yeah, so socks. What was your best bit?
Meg:To be honest, I just really liked that bit at the end of when she asked us what our least favourite takeaways were. It's just good isn't it. It's just good. Should have done a food podcast really Smez.
Sara:It was a nice relaxing last episode. I thought. So.
Meg:I agree. Good. Send off. Should we do thanks?
Sara:Thanks Tim Bentley for our theme tune. Always appreciated. And Al Finney for our cover artwork which you can get on a badge, but only, only, if you leave a review and subscribe.
Meg:Leave us a damn review everyone.
Sara:Yeah, I do give them out. But I will give you one if you're nice to us. Generally. I'm pretty easy. Please leave us a review. It's really helpful.
Meg:And we're going to start reading the best ones out actually. Shall I read out my best one?
Sara:Yeah.
Meg:Right hang on. I love it. I literally love it. I check some times. I'm like what absolute legend's written that. Probably my mum. Do you know what we've got loads. We've got such great listeners but they we do get a lot of reviews. We do get a lot of reviews. It's lovely. My favourite was recently someone was like listening to this makes me feel like one of a select group of slightly nerdy but fun friends. Brilliant. Nerdy but fun. But yeah, thank you. We really like them. Look at my hair.
Sara:Like a unicorn.
Meg:Like a unicorn. Yeah, we really love them. So please, if you could write us a review, that'd be sweet. What else? What else do we need to do?
Sara:Transcripts on the website.
Meg:Transcripts on the website. If you want to read those. If you want to get in touch with us. I'm @MuseumMeg on Twitter. Sara is @SaraLMerritt. And you can also tweet us @LeedsMuseums. That's me behind the keyboard that. So yeah get in touch if you fancy it and that's kind of it. Isn't it Smez? Series 3?
Sara:I never know how to sign these things off. I was gonna say over and out, which is interesting. Probably because I've been watching a lot of snowpiercer and you know, it's a lot of train chat.
Meg:Oh, by the way, I watched The Terror, have you seen The Terror?
Sara:No, I've got it on my list to watch it but I've heard very good things about it. But I'm also like, I need a minute I probably need a minute and wine to just psych myself up for it because it's a mouthful, isn't it?
Meg:I don't think it's that bad at all. It's kind of like you're watching a story like you forget that it was real. It's fine. Which it was and is still bad. And I really enjoyed it but also it really made me want to want to find out more about shipwrecks. I think next series we need to do we need to get someone on to talk about shipwreck finds. Someone at a
Unknown:Yeah, okay, great. I am all for that. Scotland and th seaside Yes, yes.
Meg:Yeah. Or,
Unknown:Don't say do a podcast n a boat though because I will b sick on
Meg:I was gonna say we dive down. Dive down to shipwreck a d do a podcast fr
Sara:Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. I' pretty sure you need to be cer ified but totally fine.
Meg:Yeah also, I'm so... Yeah I'm so scared of the sea.
Sara:So we have a few factors in our way to achieving that, but it's an aspiration, isn't it?
Meg:Yeah. Anyway, guys, if this doesn't make you want to subscribe and look forward to season four then madness.
Sara:Well there's nothing else
Meg:Brilliant. Thank you so much to everyone that's liste ed this series, and we will be b ck. I've been watching the Terminator actually. This is brilliant. It all comes f ll circle. We will be ba
Sara:Yay. Well done A
