Museums n'That
Museums n'That
He extracted some fluid from that blister
In this uncharacteristically relevant episode, Meg and Sara talk to lovely Owen Gower from Dr. Jenner's House, off of the birthplace of vaccinations.
We find out about Blossom the cow and her 20 horns, ghost stories from inside the house and the naughty vicar's wife who stole a plant from the Pope. Oh, and all about vaccinations (lancets, people!), Edward Jenner and what it's like to work at the house of one of history's good guys.
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Well what I like about genetics is that like you don't know what you've got? Really. It's just a mixed bag isn't it.
Meg:What, so likeyou don't know which bits of which parent you're gonna get.
Sara:Yeah, and also how you your genetics then go, do you know what I'm gonna do this bit differently.
Meg:Hello it's us and welcome to the Museums n'That podcast where each episode we have a chingwag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums and Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. Also, I feel like whenever I say that I go 'podcast'. Do you know what I mean?
Sara:Yeah, yeah, we should... We should get someone with a really strong Leeds accent to do it actually.
Meg:Good idea Sara.
Sara:Thank you. All right. I'm gonna go first. Hi, how are you tell me one thing for the week, because you always go first.
Meg:This is a turn out for the books isn't it.
Sara:Just because I'm ready this week and I'm excited about it.
Meg:Brilliant, yeah I know I just feel like really disorganised and dishevelled. And yeah, I've mainly just been existing. The only the one thing that has been really good, which is a general recommendation for you and any listeners, I listened to the Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen podcast. Have you heard about this? It's called renegades in the USA, which I literally love. And it's just Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen, just having a little chat in in Bruce's house. And it's insane. It's so lovely. And also both of them have the most ridiculous voices like I was listening to it and laughing thinking how how like, shrill and abrasive our voices are compared to them. But yeah, there was a bit that made me genuinely emotional. Got a bit teary. And go on. How are you tell me one good thing.
Sara:Yeah. So my one thing that I did this week, which was really exciting was I bought an art print. But wait for it. It's not off of an artist. It's off of a comedian. It's a print from Joe Lycett and it's of blue hyacinths and it's very good. I'm very excited to get it because I think he's brilliant and hilarious. And if you don't like his humour, then you won't you won't, absolutely won't get the artwork. But I think it's brilliant.
Meg:That's really cute. You know how everyone was like buying loads of stuff in lockdown. I felt like I like buying art and stuff in my house because I know that I'm like, gonna fit into it when we're out of lockdown. Whenever I buy clothes, I'm like, Am I gonna? Is it?
Sara:Yeah. Also that's a good egg amount behind you there. I'm jealous. I don't have any eggs in stock.
Meg:You mean 12 large?
Sara:Yeah. 12 large. It's the only amount you should ever get.
Meg:Yeah, normally... I've been dipping in to Burford browns.
Sara:Oh, very posh.
Meg:Really good. Anyway, we're literally descending into egg chat. We need to get this done. Okay, go on. You say because you know what, and I'm gonna, there's a strong chance I'm going to call you out on this when we're talking to him. You've gone deep. You've gone deep in the research for this one. I'm so embarrassed.
Sara:No, not really. I just like to be you know, aware.
Meg:Right go on, tell us.
Sara:Okay, so today we have Owen Gower. He is the museum manager at Dr. Jenner's House, which, in my head, I keep thinking of Jeckyll and Hyde. Not the same.
Meg:That's so funny because in my head, I keep thinking of Kylie Jenner.
Sara:Brilliant. So total opposite ends of the spectrum. Both of which fictional characters, maybe maybe not. Dr. Jenner's House, down off of Gloucester. Very nice part of the world. So he's the vaccine pioneer really, isn't he Edward Jenner? We're going to talk about the history of smallpox and vaccination, which is very topical for us.
Meg:Also you literally didn't drop in, literally, five minutes before we started recording, Sara was like, ooh, the origins of Owen's name.
Sara:It was just a little side note that I happened to read about this morning. We don't need to know, it's boring.
Meg:But yeah, so we're hopefully gonna find out some more stuff about what the kind of things in the collection the history of Edward Jenner and, and neither of us have ever met Owen before. Right?
Sara:No, no, no. Just, you know, a bit of casual social media stalking, as you do.
Meg:Absolutely. I don't think I've met him but I've seen him. I mean, that's weird isn't it but like...
Sara:Well you are know for being a massive creep.
Meg:Brilliant, thank you. That's literally not what I want to be known as. I think I saw him do a talk once and I remember sitting there thinking, Hmm, this seems like a nice man with interesting things to say. And this was literally like three years ago.
Sara:Such insight, thank you.
Meg:To be fair Owen has told me that he's a listener so he knows what he's in for. Right? Owen Gower's episode of Museums n'That everyone, enjoy. Oh, that was a weird intonation wasn't it? Enjoy. Enjoy. No...
Sara:Enjoy.
Meg:Enjoy. I cannot say it without sounding sarcastic. Enjoy. That'll do. Listen to it, don't, I don't care. Oh god.
Owen:Morning!
Meg:Owen! Hello! How are you?
Owen:Yeah I'm more I think I'm bit flustered my my blanket fort just fell down. So sorry I was a bit lare, I was just rebuilding it.
Meg:Honestly don't worry that is the best excuse anyone's ever had. I was kind of hoping that you'd come in though and be like shrouded in like a little blanket.
Owen:Yeah, I did try that. But I did a recording a couple of months ago with radio four. And they had a proper actor in to read a voice part. And he was literally he was like, right, I'm going under the blanket now and disappeared under this blanket and then came back out. So I kind of thought that looks a bit weird.
Meg:Brilliant. Also, I really wish that I was upstairs in my house because Sara, don't you think that my upstairs in my house looks exactly the same as Owens?
Sara:It is very, very similar.
Meg:Owen later, I'll take a picture of it for you. My setup is weirdly the exact same as yours. Like it looks like you're in my house.
Sara:Also. Is that a washing thing in the back?
Owen:Yes, that's the blanket fort.
Sara:Brilliant.
Owen:So the first question as always, is who the flip are you? I'm Owen Gower. I'm the museum manager at Dr. Jenner's house in Berkeley in Gloucestershire and we're on the banks of the river seven, sort of halfway between Bristol and Gloucester.
Meg:This is literally the worst question I'm ever going to ask, I don't know why it's popped into my head. But what's better? Bristol or Gloucester?
Owen:Ooh. I've got a lot of love for Gloucester. Gloucester I think is the one that people people - ooh, I'm going to get myself in trouble - but I think a lot of people have a really down view of Gloucester, but it's just got such fantastic history. It's got all these little narrow alleys and kind of weird things, you can just step off of the main road in Gloucester and find yourself up against this, looking up at this, this 17th century house, this timber framed house that is next to a branch of McDonald's, and no one ever sees it because it's just this little alleyway that doesn't go anywhere. It's got one of the best cathedrals in the country in the world perhaps. It's just got such a rich history.
Meg:And you know, good to know there's a McDonald's there. Okay, so the natural next question then is who the flip is Dr. Jenner?
Owen:Well, that's a that's a really good question. Because I mean, I've been working at Dr. Jenner's House for seven years now. And when I started, and this is the big embarrassment, is that I didn't really know who Dr. Jenner was when I started. And he's got one of these names that I think is associated with science with discovery and of course with vaccination now, but so many people don't really know much about him at all other than maybe a kind of story that they've been told at school about cows, dairy maids, and smallpox. I mean, he's best known now as the pioneer of vaccination. He was the first person in the world to do what I think we think of now as clinical trials into the use of cow pox to protect against smallpox. And in doing so he really set in place, everything that's that's going on in the world today. 200 years of vaccine development. It's something like 26 different diseases we can now protect against through vaccination. And it saves between two and 3 million lives every year and smallpox is eradicated. And Jenner plays a really crucial part in that, because he was the person who not just tried it out, but also told everyone how to do it and started to try and teach people to do their own vaccination and really established it as the amazing preventative tool that it is today.
Sara:If he was around today, do you think he would be... he'd be a good lad to have around? Do you think you'd be like best mates with him?
Owen:Yeah, I think so. I mean, Jenner is one of my I think one of my personal heroes. I mean, I know that I'm paid to say that, but also, it really is true. I mean, the more I learn about Jenner, the more I think he must have been just such a such a character because it wasn't just that he had this idea, he did a bizarre experiment and just chanced it. It really was the culmination of about 40 years of thinking of work of talking to people collecting evidence, before he started this this process and actually tried it out really thoroughly and scientifically. He made notes, he had his experiment, he had his test. So on the 14th of May 1796, he deliberately infected an eight year old boy called James Phipps with cow pox. And he then waited for a little bit, James developed a kind of minor fever probably was a little bit sore, a little bit tender, but made a quick recovery. And then Jenner tested it - he did what we probably think of as a challenge trial today. He tried to infect Phipps with smallpox. And nothing happened, Phipps didn't contract smallpox, but then Jenner tried it again. And he tried it again. And he actually kept trying it for quite a few years afterwards. And we get the word vaccination from the Latin vaca, meaning cow. And he then devoted the rest of his life to telling people how to how to do it. And he didn't try and profit from it, either. He set up a small hut in his garden to vaccinate people. And he was very willing to just share his knowledge with with anyone I think, really, he's one of history's really good, guys.
Meg:I mean, fair play. It's a pretty, pretty nice thing to do, isn't it? And my question when I was reading this, this story of James Phipps and is it Sara Nelms the milkmaid. So he took the cow pox, or the smallpox from a blister on her hand?
Owen:Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I don't know how, how gory your podcast viewers want me to go...
Meg:Oh, God, go, go, go. Go gory.
Owen:So smallpox is called smallpox, because that's a description of the symptoms, people will get these characteristic pustules generally on their their hands, their arms, their face. But really, it's the virus is working its way around the whole body. Prevention was better than cure. And so in parts of Turkey, parts of the Middle East, China, India, Africa, and then this bizarre kind of little group of people in South Wales, as well, roughly about the same time start performing this practice that became known as inoculation or varielation. And that's deliberate infection with smallpox with the aim of provoking an immune response. They didn't know how it worked. They didn't really know anything about it. But they did know that if you had smallpox once, you wouldn't get it again. So this this kind of thing was practised in various parts of the world, but was eventually brought back to Western medicine in 1721 by Lady Mary Wortley Montagu in Britain. She had been the wife to the British ambassador to Turkey. And she had witnessed it being practised there and used her influence in society when she came back to England to try and encourage people to receive this, this inoculation, this varielation. So that's 1721. About the same time in the States, an enslaved man called an Onesimis, who had been forcibly taken from we think West Africa, and sold to a Puritan preacher in Boston, told his owner about this practice that he had experienced of being deliberately infected with smallpox. So this kind of existed for about 60, 70 years prior to Jenner in western medicine. Sort of at the start of Jenner's career, he starts hearing about people in the local area, using cow pox to protect themselves against smallpox. And cow pox is I think it was known as a disease of milkmaids or farmers, you would get it through little cuts on your hands. If you were milking, if you're coming into close contact with cows, and then you would have a really big pustule form up on the site of the infection. And Jenner took this idea, okay, if we can deliberately infect people with smallpox, why don't we try and deliberately infect people with cow pox to see if we can if we can provide that protection against smallpox? And so yeah, he waited until someone came up to him and said, I've got cow pox and that was a milkmaid called Sarah Nelms, and the legend is that she picked up this infection from her cow who was called Blossom. We've got a painting of Blossom at the museum. Blossom has something like 20 different cow horns scattered in medical museum collections around the country. Her hide is in St. George's Hospital in London. So Sarah Nelms had the cow pox blister. Jenner took a lancet it to it, he extracted some fluid from that blister, and then he scratched it into the upper arm of James Phipps. So then Phipps would have contracted the disease, he would have had a localised infection, the blister would have formed there. And Jenner kind of actually went to steps to look at every stage of this process. He drew pictures, he described it, he tried to tell people exactly what does a cowpox blister look like? What should it look like? How do we know that it's, it's not become it's not the secondary infection. How do we know we've not accidentally given someone smallpox or something completely different. And then the second stage was to go back and effectively to inoculate Phipps. And indeed we ask loads of questions about what's the ethics of infecting an eight year old boy, Jenner, I think knew that you had to find a subject who had never had smallpox and had never had cow pox and Phipps was the son of his gardener. So they knew each other fairly well. And I think Jenner could have been fairly certain that he would have been a good, good subject.
Sara:It's really interesting because not wanting to go into too much detail about it as a non expert, but you know...
Meg:Here she goes...
Sara:Here I go - vaccinations, now one of our questions, I mean, we could probably guess the answer to this, but in terms of like, apprehensions around vaccinations, certainly, like from a museum perspective, but maybe generally, you spent a lot of this year talking about that. And do you think that that will be a kind of a theme going forwards as to how the museum will look at I suppose?
Meg:I did think when I got in touch with you,Owen, to ask you to come on, I though ugh he's going to be getting booked up...
Owen:Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Everyone wants to talk about anti vaccination. I think I've, I've disappointed a few people so far in the past year, because actually, we try and we try and look at it in the same way that Jenner did. Because Jenner was facing the same kind of arguments, some of the arguments that you see being replayed on the internet now are exactly the same arguments that people were using to attack vaccination back in the 1790s. In the early 1800s. I mean, I think last year, there was a campaign in some parts, some countries in the world that was presenting this idea that if you've got the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine, that you would turn into a chimpanzee, because the viral vector is from a chimp adenovirus. That's completely rubbish. But also back in Jenner's time, people thought, potentially, that they might become more bovine in characteristics, they might start developing a liking for eating grass. There's even these cartoons of people growing horns or developing udders and things like that. But I think also, it's really important to say that we focus a lot on anti vaccination, on the the anti vaxxers. But the actual focus, I think, that we want to have, and the focus that Jenner I think would have wanted to have is on the people who are perhaps just a little bit unsure. They want to make an informed choice. And I think we need to give people the the time and the space to be able to have those conversations, but be able to have them with people who know the answers. Edward Jenner vaccinated people from Berkeley and from the surrounding area free of charge. And one account of him during that vaccination is that he perfectly understands the fears and concerns of all those who come to to be vaccinated. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people say to me, oh, Edward Jenner, no, it must have been, he must be really, really annoyed. He'd be turning in his grave about anti vaccination activists. And I think I just have to say, Well, I think he would have expected it. But I think also, he'd be really keen to change the conversation away from Pro vaccination versus anti vaccination to accepting that yeah, people people have some concerns. That's only right. It doesn't mean those concerns are necessarily justified. But it does mean that we should be able to have those conversations and give people space so that they feel comfortable with it, and they can make that informed decision about whether they want to be vaccinated or not.
Meg:Owen when you go to bed at night, do you dream about cows and smallpox and vaccinations?
Owen:Yeah, I mean, I, I'm a bit... I can actually see the museum out my window sill. So although I'm working from home, I can still see out of the window, which is a bit it's a bit off putting sometimes I kind of, yeah, I do look out and think oh, I hope it's all okay over there. Yeah, it's quite difficult to get away from. And even things like, bit behind on on things like watching The Great because I know that we're about to get to the smallpox episode. And I'm not sure I can quite bear to have an evening of watching more more smallpox things, particularly at the moment. But yeah, I haven't got to the stage of having having smallpox dreams yet. I'm still mostly dreaming about having my head stuck in the computer, which is a whole different story.
Meg:Been there. Yeah, I feel like we've been recording for what, like 29 minutes and you more than any other guest I feel like you are literally a machine. And I mean that as a biggest compliment ever. I feel like I've just absorbed so much information. Yeah.
Sara:It's incredible.
Owen:I've had practices this past year talking about?
Sara:Yeah, yeah.
Megan Jones:Just I know. You mentioned the museum then, in fact, you can see out of your window and a big part of what I wanted to talk to you about today was the museum and your experiences working there. So just as a historic House Museum, how does that work? Like are you scared to touch things? Like where's your desk? What room's your desk in, those kinds of things?
Owen:Am I scared to touch things? Yes. The challenge for us is kind of that the building is part of the collection, as well. So you get really protective about the building. And yeah, that same sort of feeling when you look at an object and think, oh, you know there's a bit falling off of that or something. You get the same feeling with the building, is something falling off of the building. My desk is is not very glamorous. So the office is in an outbuilding. I stare at a wall day, and it doesn't feel historic at all. And we're separate to the main house. So actually going into the main house, yeah, being in the main house is a real joy. I still get quite a thrill going in there. And I think probably more so this year, because it's been so rare to go in. And actually every time I go into museum and throw open the shutters and just try and make it feel a bit more lifted. It's really just nice. I get that little feeling of something happened here. We're walking around here we're touching the bannister that Jenner might have touched. We're in the study that Jenner did most of his work in perhaps it was here that he wrote his 1798 book telling the world how to vaccinate. It's just such a such a special place. It is also a complete pain because you add a zero on to the cost of everything with a building like Dr. Jenner's House.
Meg:What's your favourite room? Or like favourite quirk about the house?
Owen:I'm gonna I'm gonna answer a different question and be annoying. My least favourite thing about the house is that it's completely symmetrical except for one window from and I think I went four years without noticing it. And ever since I've seen that it's just every time I go in, it really, really really frustrates me. I don't know why. Because I just don't know why it happened.
Sara:Well, I imagine it's a bit like Tom Cruise's middle tooth. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Meg:Exactly the same thing. And I wonder if I wonder if Jenner was also annoyed by him.
Owen:I think he did get quite easily annoyed by little slightly petty things. So we know that he got into a few rows with his gardener because his gardener wasn't looking after his vegetables in the way that Jenner had this plan for how you should look after vegetables. He probably had given it a lot of scientific thought. And then I think his Gardner came along and sort of I've been doing this this way for however many years. So it's...
Meg:The logical thing in my head that you're about to say them was he got into an argument with this gardener because he was injecting his son.
Owen:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, it's not recorded what the gardener thought about that. And I think Janner could have cut him a bit of slack really after after all that, rather than just going straight into a rant about beetroot.
Sara:Don't bite the hand that literally feeds.
Meg:With the garden. One thing that always... That I always think about is like, are all the plants the same? Like does the historic houseness of Dr. Jenner's house extend to the garden?
Owen:So there's there's one plant that's really really special and that is a constant source of anxiety, which is a grape vine that was planted by Edward Jenner in 1816. The story is that the same vine we have in the garden now is that vine that was planted by Jenner, and I don't want to be the person who oversaw the death of Edward Jenner's grape vine I can't imagine that being that being a good thing for the CV. The rest of it, Jenner made notes about some of the things he had, particularly the weird and wonderful things he had, a transparent apple and he had white strawberries, and things like that. But the house was lived in after Jenner died. So Jenner died in 1823. His son lived in it for a few years after that. Then the property was rented out then it became a Vicarage. At some point, the vicar put in a tennis court on the lawn, and obviously planted their own flowers. We get cylamen growing around the base of one of the trees and the story there is that the wife of one of the vicars went to the Vatican. And there in the Pope's private garden, she saw some cylamen and thought ooh, these are nice. So she carefully pulled one out of the ground and hid it in her umbrella and took it all the way back from Italy and planted it in Berkeley. And supposedly they still grow there today. So I think they're the two plants, the vine and the Cyclamen that we're really quite precious about.
Meg:When you said grapevine, then all I can think of in my head was I really hope that you're going to make some wine.
Owen:Yeah, we so they're dessert grapes. I'm not a fan of grapes. I don't really like them. They're quite sharp, and they've got loads of seeds.
Meg:I don't like grapes, then everyone's always like why don't you like grapes...
Sara:Unless they're wine...
Meg:Unless they're liquidised grapes. But they just remind me of being ill.
Owen:Yeah. And we ended up with so many bunches of grapes that we're literally just giving away to neighbours. It's a bit like the whole cause yet thing. Last year, two years ago, we've got a local brewery, and they just took a whole crop of grapes and steeped them in beer for a year and then left it to ferment for a bit longer and bottled it up. And that's the closest we've got to making wine so far is grape beer.
Sara:What's the brewery?
Owen:It's called Mills brewery.
Sara:Okay.
Meg:Sara's a beer head.
Sara:Well that's really interesting though.
Meg:So in terms of the house, I know you mentioned the painting of Blossom. What is the collection like and are you still discovering things as well?
Owen:The history of the collection is a bit of a challenge for us because a lot of the the main prominent Jenner objects, so things like Jenner's papers, Jenner's lancets were collected and put into museum collections long before we started. But when we were established, there were a few family items that hadn't made it into Wellcome's collection. So things like the Jenner family christening gown, with bits and pieces like teapots, and copies of publications that have been passed down the family, ended up in our collection. So in terms of what visitors see, when they come around the museum, they start off looking at some of the items that are just the Jenner family items, like the christening gown, which is just such a wonderful thing to have. And then we've got items that were owned by Jenner used by Jenner: prescriptions that he had written out, we've got lancets that were used for vaccination and for other surgical things.
Meg:What sorry, what is a lancet?
Owen:A lancet - it is literally, it's a small Lance. It is a tiny surgical blade. So it's a steel, sharp, pointy thing. They weren't using needles, they were using just basically literally taking the material on the tip of this tiny blade and then scratching it into the skin.
Sara:Interesting.
Meg:Just before we get on to our like questions that we normally ask people every episode, I just have one last question for you. Owen which is maybe annoying... because I know some people don't like to talk about this. But every time I go into a historic house, and I'm getting a tour or anything, I'm obviously interested in the history of the house, objects, brilliant. But what I really want to know are ghost stories. Are there any ghost stories from Dr. Jenner's House?
Owen:Oh, it's I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for saying this because we're sort of... we're a science museum. But of course they're stories, aren't they? And they're kind of things that people have told throughout the centuries. And they shed such an interesting light on who lived in the house. And I think that's what I find I really like about the ghost stories associated with Dr. Jenner's House. So the main one is the few years ago, a BBC photographer took some timelapse photos in the in the attic, we've got an attic space that's not really been touched that much. It's probably it's the one area of the museum that hasn't been restored, hasn't been done up for visitor access. So you access it through these narrow rickety stairs. And it's... yeah, it's a really atmospheric and it's quite a it's quite creepy place. I don't like spending that much time up there. But this photographer took this image that had a shape disturbance on it. And the story that's kind of being formed around that was based on, I think, based on other experiences that people have had in the attic. So this idea that this was the tutor who was looking after Edward Jenner's son. Edward Jenner's son, eldest son, had learning difficulties from birth and a tutor was employed, a man named John Dawes-Wargen to come and live with the family and to teach Edward's son Edward and John Dawes-Wargen unbeknown to anyone was carrying tuberculosis when he came into the house. And so very sadly, within just a couple of months he had died. And then before not too long, Catherine, who was Edward Jenner's wife, had also succumbed to tuberculosis. And then Edward, Edward Jenner's eldest son had also died of tuberculosis. And it's one of the huge tragedies in Jenner's life and I think it caused him to withdraw from society. It led to him spending most of his time in in Berkeley from that point onwards and left him with with a sense of sadness that really filled him for the rest of his life. So the story is that this ghost in the attic is perhaps the spirit of John Dawes-Wargen who is just really unhappy with the fact that he brought tuberculosis into the house and it ultimately contributed to the the early deaths of both Edward's son Edward and Edwards wife, Catherine. And then we also have a dog and the dog is is an interesting one. So when the museum first opened to the public, the whole upstairs of it was actually used as accommodation for visiting medics and other academic people who were coming to live in Edward Jenner's house for a couple of days. Yeah, come come visit the museum stay in the hotel upstairs. It's quite a quite good business model. Really. We don't do it now. Perhaps because of this. So one person staying recalled that they were kept awake in the night by the sound of a dog scratching against the door, and every time they got up to go and let the dog in. There just wasn't anything there at all, and they could hear this kind of scampering noise scurrying away down the down the stairs. And this happened so many times, and they were absolutely convinced that it was a dog. And then they went down the next morning and spoke to the caretaker, and said, well, you, it must have been your dog your dog was was disturbing me all night. You know what, why? Why don't you keep him, keep him in your room at night, rather than let him wander around the house. And the caretaker said, I haven't got a dog. I don't know what you're talking about. And that story has been told. But then a couple of years ago, we had someone doing some work in the house. And they were just stood on the staircase in the museum, and felt something just just brushed past their leg. And instinctively, they reached out to pet a dog that they thought was there. And then they turned around and there, there wasn't anything and there wasn't anyone in the house, we were closed at the time. But again, those this kind of all those stories combined, are things that we like to tell but which perhaps our charity will be a bit annoyed with me for sharing in a public forum. I've done it now.
Meg:But it's like, like you said, it's interesting, because it's like reflective of the history of storytelling within the house generally, and the people who went and the stories from them. I always think this because I think it is a thing that museums sometimes get a bit funny about like, I know, we've got some fascinating stories that visitors always love. But we aren't always so keen to tell because some of that it's like people have died. It's sad. These are real people. So it's it's a tricky one. But I think whichever way you look at it is always very interesting to hear. And they are stories.
Owen:Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it kind of also reflects, we have the challenge of being an historic house, which loads of people have lived in it was built 80 years before Jenner moved there. And so it's got this kind of idea that it's been inhabited for for 500, 600 years. But we talk about Edward Jenner, and people really want to know, yeah, what were the servants like, who was who was living there? What, what are the stories that you got, and try to piece together the the documentary evidence of that when it's so tied up in this is Dr. Jenner's house, this is where Edward Jenner lived and that's all we can say about it.
Sara:It's all been amazingly fascinating. I think the house itself is so beautiful. And I love a historic house. So we're only gutted that we couldn't actually come and do this in person. But as on when we can, we'll be on that train down to Gloucester. And you are font of knowledge.
Meg:I think you're not... I think that you're a Wikipedia page masquerading as a human.
Owen:I'm putting that in my Twitter bio now.
Meg:Brilliant. Okay, so Owen, you're a listener, so you should know what questions we have coming for you. So first one is what's been your favourite day at work?
Owen:I forgot about this one but I have got an answer for it. I was so psyched. I was so prepared for the takeaway question that I forgot about the favourite day at work question. It's hard work. As I say it's hard work running an historic house. And it's hard work, trying to find the funding to keep it going. We don't get any regular funding at all. There's no government grants. So we're reliant on everything that we do ourselves. And a couple of years ago, we were in a really, really difficult financial situation, we'd had a couple of bad years of visitor income, we've had a couple of serious maintenance defects. And that was on the back of not being in the best place financially to begin with. And we needed to raise 20,000 pounds by the end of the financial year. And I just had this idea that maybe we should kickstart our campaign by encouraging as many people as possible to come to Dr. Jenner's house for a photograph in front of of the house just to show the kind of strength of support for Doctor Jenner's house. And so we put up posters around Berkeley, we put it out on on Twitter and on social media, we wrote to the papers, we tried to get as many people as possible to come down. And then on the day, there was just that moment of no one's going to come. We'd said everyone was going to come at 11. Quarter to 11 there was no one there, it was chucking it down with rain. And I thought, ah, this isn't gonna work at all. Why on earth did I have this idea? And then how I remember it anyway, it probably wasn't quite so dramatic was this, this sea of people just walking up church lane towards the museum, but gradually more and more and more and more people came. Someone phoned us up and said, oh, by the way, I've got a Gloucester cow. Do you want it to come along and pretend to be Blossom? Yeah, so so we had this cow. We had a couple of people who turned up dressed as James Phipps and Edward Jenner and Sarah Nelms and just loads of people from the community and we had... about 300 people there. And it was just fantastic and the photo that was taken it's, it's on pretty much every page on our website now because I love it so much. It was just, it was that moment where I think I thought we've always known this place is important as a staff team as a volunteer team. We are absolutely passionate about Edward Jenner and promoting the the role that the chantry and Dr Jenner's house has had in in world history. I think it was that moment where we thought, yeah, other people care about this, too. This, this really is important. I think it's been, it was the catalyst for a significant amount of of change and growth. And it's just a change in strategy in the organisation. And the next year, we went to National Lottery Heritage Fund, we used the photo as evidence in our application to Heritage Fund for a grant to help us work on a on a new strategy for the museum. And so coming into the start of last year, pandemic aside, we were in the process of kind of regrouping and growing as an organisation. And hopefully we can continue to do that in this year and in the coming years, because we really want to ensure that we're not in that situation, again, where we're in such financial difficulty that we've got to go out pleaing for people to come and support us. But yeah, that the memories of that day, I just think the days when I think no one really cares about this. You know, you have days where no one's replying to your emails, and you're not getting any likes on Twitter or your things like that. And I always go back to, to that day and to yeah, the memories of that day, and just just the conversations as well. People telling us why Dr. Jenner's house was important to them. Really good day.
Meg:God, I feel like crying. That's so lovely.
Sara:It makes your heart sing doesn't it?
Meg:I know it feels like that's, that's like the end of a film.
Owen:Yeah, well, I think it's cinematic in my head as well, as I say all these people marching up church lane coming towards through the fog through the mist, singing about Edward Jenner.
Sara:That is wonderful. Maybe it'll happen again when we're all allowed to reopen. But yeah, I think as a side note, just to add to that, I think it's obviously been massively devastating on a lot of different levels. But it's also forced the sector to do a bit of a hard think about how we do things. And I think a lot of good's gonna come out of it as well. I'm positive, I'm hopeful. But anyway, moving, moving swiftly on. We have a penultimate double edged question, which is all about takeaways. And first off, if you could sum up a bit of a takeaway for our listeners, about everything that we've talked about today, please.
Meg:She doesn't normally say please, by the way.
Sara:I felt like I need to be very polite.
Owen:It disarmed me. Thank you. I think probably just that we need small museums, we need little stories, we need stories that have shaped the world in many, many different ways. And I think it's just wonderful. You know, Jenner is part of this, this huge story that goes from the unnamed inoculators who first started trying to work out how to prevent smallpox with with smallpox, all the way up to the people working on the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine. Now, the people working on the Pfizer biontech vaccine, just there's a whole history of all of these people working on on vaccine development, people who are involved in the roll out people who are involved in arranging for, you know, encouraging people to take it, just sharing positive messages. And so I think it's just amazing that through one house here in the middle of the Gloucestershire countryside, it's amazing that that story can be told. And long may continue.
Sara:Absolutely hear, hear, hear. So you know, what's coming up next. And this is getting more and more interesting each episode that we do, and giving us a lot of literal food for thought. So what's your actual favourite literal takeaway?
Owen:Yeah. So it's really difficult because I was listening back to... I wanted to... preparing for this because this is the one question that I've been really terrified by.
Meg:It's really hard, isn't it?
Owen:Because we don't have that much in the way of takeaways in in Berkeley. And I was listening back and everyone on on the pod before has said, Oh, yeah, it's this particular place, and I have this particular thing. I just like fish and chips.
Meg:Oh, my God. I literally was sitting here thinking I bet he's gonna choose fish and chips. I don't know what you give off fish and chip energy Owen.
Sara:Oh, yeah.
Owen:I don't know if that's a compliment or not.
Meg:Absolutely it is.
Owen:Fish and Chips by the seaside. It's what I can't wait for when, when this is all over. But as a temporary thing. We've got a circus that operates around this part of Gloucestershire called Gifford circus. It's absolutely fantastic. It's really wonderful. To try and keep their income going during the pandemic and during the first lockdown, they started doing takeaway of not of circus but they have an onsite restaurant - it's a very very fancy circus but...
Sara:I was going to say, what circus does takeaway? I'm thinking like candy floss.
Owen:Yeah no, no... So I went twice because I enjoyed it so much. It's like beef rib with dates and hazelnuts with beetroot gratin, and a sticky toffee pudding type thing for dessert. And then the next time was Ethiopian night so they had various different Ethiopian lentil and lamb and vegetable stews, and then the most divine coffee and chocolate cake that I I'm very tempted every time I think about that, I think I gotta have to email them to ask for the recipe because it's just probably one of the best things I've ever eaten. So Gifford Circus have been a very very worthy lockdown takeaway and it's been fantastic to try and... I convinced myself that it's a good thing because it's it's it's helping a business in lockdown, but really, I just like the food but also can't wait for fish and chips again.
Meg:And just on fish and chips. Owen I need I need some more. I need you to tell me what you like are you mushy peas? Are you curry sauce? What's like... because up here, people...
Sara:Gravy?
Meg:Yeah, see gravy. No no no. I'm from down south. And when I came up here, I'd never heard of scraps. And I don't know whether that's like a good... Like, what's the thing down there?
Owen:Yeah, when I was at York, some friends of mine, we set up a student society called chip soc. And yeah, I definitely give off fish and chip vibes don't I? So we set up this society called chip Soc. I think because we thought maybe the Student Union would pay us to go and eat fish and chips every week, but they weren't happy to fund it for some reason. So we met every Friday and tried to go to every single fish and chip shop in York over the course of our degree. And there's a lot of fish and chip shops in York. And yeah, we had a lot of experiences and tried a lot of things I mean so because yeah cuz I think in Hull people are really into into chip spice. And so tried chip spice - not for me really but scraps are fantastic. I like mushy peas as well. If I'm up north, it's it's Haddock, chips, mushy peas, scraps. And if I'm down here, it's Cod, chips, mushy peas and have quizzical look when I ask for scraps.
Meg:Brilliant. Do you know I've recently changed my... Because I used to be like Haddock and chips and mushy peas. Scraps sometimes, but they're a little bit too much for me sometimes. But recently, I've changed gone so rogue and now I'm just fish butty. I'm just straight up, fish butty bit of ketchup inside, sometimes a bit like a layer of mushy peas spread on the bottom. But...
Owen:Have you ever had a Sheffield fish cake? They've got like a layer of potato then the layer of fish then another layer of potato and it's all battered.
Sara:I do love a fish cake, our local fish and chip shop which is just at the end of the road, the lady who did all of the like home cooked bits she made posh fish cakes. And it was the secret thing on the recipe, on like the menu, which wasn't a secret but it was to me because no one knew how good it was. No one appreciated how amazing it was to the point where we'd go in and she just she just knew like, we didn't get fish and chips all the time. But yeah, it was a big parsely fish cake. And now it's no longer there. So sad.
Meg:Owen, I'm going to call this now. I think that me and you should start a podcast about fish and chips. Sara you're not invited, sorry.
Sara:Thanks, thanks.
Meg:Brilliant. Okay, we have literally been recording for like an hour and 15 minutes. This is gonna be so hellish to edit.
Owen:Sorry!
Meg:No it's ok it's been lovely talking to you Owen, thank you so much for coming on.
Owen:Thank you for inviting me.
Meg:Iya.
Sara:Iya what you having.
Meg:Digestive.
Sara:Oh, nice. I just had a little chocolate chip muffin.
Meg:Oh, yeah. I've just had the most... In the time, in between the time it's taken for us to interview Owen my sister got engaged. And more importantly, I did a boxercise youtube video.
Sara:Wow.
Meg:Yeah, but afterwards, I was sitting there and I stood up and mate. I have done some bits to my back. Can you see that there? Hot water bottle. So I'm sat here with hot water bottle, I've been watching a YouTube video about how to tell if it's muscular or a pinched nerve by these two guys from America from like the 90s called like Dan and Bob. They're like really old men. And I've got like a little bit of water with a little bit pinch of salt in. My back feels like snakes.
Sara:Feels like snakes? It's quite a busy couple of hours for you. I can't say I've done anything nearly as exciting. The only other thing that's happened is we probably need a new boiler so that's good.
Meg:Oh, mate.
Sara:I don't want it there. I wanted it where it is it's out the way.
Meg:Well, we've both had a bloody nightmare haven't we mate. On the bright side we did have a lovely morning talking to Owen.
Sara:We did have a lovely morning talking to Owen. It was incredibly insightful. And I don't think I'll ever have that much knowledge in my head.
Meg:Yeah, I'm the same. I don't think I've ever spoken to someone or like been part of a conversation with anyone ever in my life that has been - that sounds dramatic - I actually do mean this like, it was like he was reading off of... off of something, but he literally wasn't.
Sara:Off of a story book.
Meg:And also really nice to meet him actually, finally.
Sara:Yeah, shame about the blanket fort but oh well.
Meg:I need to send him a picture of my house. Actually. That's kind of weird, isn't it? I met you. I met you today. Let me show you my house. Anyway, what was your favourite learn? You like the cow? I know you do. Blossom.
Sara:Oh, I do love. I do love the cow. I was a bit sad that she's kind of everywhere. But I suppose that was inevitable. And I quite liked the fact... I say quite like the fact. It's kind of comforting to know that there were a lot of vaccine naysayers back in back in them days. And the way that it was kind of dealt with was it was like, well, we're not going to talk to you. Because what's the point? There's no time we need to just crack on with this. I think that's really a really good attitude. And he just kind of went you know what, keeping this positive. I'm only going to deal with the people that want to be part of this. And if you don't want to, if you don't want to be part of it, that's okay. You know, like, you you do whatever you want. That was my thing. It was kind of that was kind of generic, but what was your best learn? Apart from ghosts?
Meg:Oh, yeah. I did wonder how ghosts was going to go down because as Owen was talking, I was like, God, everything he's saying is just really intelligent. I know that I'm about to ask him about ghosts. I don't know how he's gonna take it. The ghosts was good. But well, my favourite learn to be fair was the grapes.
Sara:I knew you'd... you love grapes. Because you've got a grapevine, you think you're Mrs. Wine.
Meg:But actually to be to be fair, to be fair to him, my favourite part of that was actually him telling us about that time when all those people came.
Sara:Yeah I know that was lovely.
Meg:That was really sweet.
Sara:It made my heart swell up a little.
Meg:I just think it's so easy. When you're listening to like the radio, and you're reading newspapers, a lot of the things about museums are to do with the big huge stories involving like national museums and bigger museum services. And I honestly just think if you live in a little village or a little town, or you know of a small museum, go, literally go because your money, like the money that you're paying, literally will save it. Just go get a cup of tea, buy a magnet to give to your nan.
Sara:Have a chat.
Meg:Have a chat yeah, have a chat. And just have a lovely time and save people's jobs and museums. I wish I could drop this mic without it making a really annoying noise.
Sara:Just like boing. I think it is. It is a big thing, though. And like we totally take it for granted that they're just there and it's something that we have and like I don't know, it's such a massive part of our culture. Important isn't it.
Meg:I love a little museum. I'm not sure if I said this on the pod before, but one of my best museums I've ever been in is the museum in Mevagissy which is like this tiny little fishing village in Cornwall and it's just so good. It's like it converted fisherman's hut. Just think Yeah, small museums. Well done.
Sara:Good excellent. Well done.
Meg:Go on, then you can do this bit.
Sara:We have to do some thanks no. Come on. Sara. I think about it. Right.
Meg:You sound how my back feels.
Sara:Yeah, exacerbated with being alive. Yeah, so a couple of thank yous, Tim Bentley for our theme tune, which I haven't heard for ages. Because I always listened to the edits without music. So might treat myself to that. And, and then Alex Finney. For our delicious cover artwork, look at your face. You're like, What is she gonna say next? What is she gonna come out with?
Meg:It's like, it's like in that in that episode when he says, Can you tell us what your favourite takeaway is? Please? And the please, just really, it was just crazy. Go on.
Sara:In other news, please subscribe. And leave us a review because it really helps our ratings. And it means that we can carry on doing this.
Meg:By the way, actually, if you're listening to this right now, if you're hearing this actual bit that are saying, it meant that you've made it all the way through, which might mean that you really enjoy these. And there is a chance that you will do as we say.
Sara:Or you could have already done that and you're sick of us saying it.
Meg:Oh, yeah, we do really need them though. We're a bit... despacito to see. But...
Sara:So embarassing.
Meg:I've gone red. I've actually gone red. Brilliant.
Sara:You can download transcripts off the website, if reading's your thing. And also you follow us on social media@MuseumMeg and @Saralmerrit and@LeedsMuseums and galleries.
Meg:Great, right. That's it. That's all folks. See you next time.
