Museums n'That
Museums n'That
Del Boy of Early Modern Stratford
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Would you snog Othello? We've always asked the truly important questions, and this series will be no different.
We're back! We've got wonderful guests! We're still on zoom and we still hate it! For this first episode of series 3, Meg and Sara chat to Anjna Chouhan off of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, who has 2 - 2! - of her own podcasts: Shakespeare Alive and Shakespeare's Pants.
Anjna patiently answers our silly little questions, like: are there any of Shakespeare's possessions still kicking about? What does it feel like sending emails every day from the place where the literal Bard was born? Most importantly, who's the fittest Shakespearean actor?
It's Helen Mirren.
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Also just before you came on, then I realised I know I probably I probably said this before, but I really realised today that like this like with the microphone, Kylie?
Sara:Yeah.
Meg:Right, hello it's us and welcome to the Museums'n That podcast where each episode we have a chinwag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums and Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. It's actually like it's got an M on it for
Sara:something really horrible.
Meg:What! What were you going to say
Sara:I was going to say moron which is horrible, and not true
Meg:You've become so savage between series two and three. But series three - exciting.
Sara:It is very exciting because we were putting off doing it for a while because we don't like doing it on here. But we've got over it. And we're really excited for this new series. And if I say excited one more time, I'm going to need to swallow a dictionary.
Meg:Mate, I feel like this same for everyone but lockdown three really did me . My motivation was just so bad. You know, when you're just like on email that you just need to send and you just put it off. That was series three. I also went through a phase where for like, a week, every time I sent a work email, I would reward myself with an episode of Diners, Drive-ins and Dives. It meant that my working day was literally 12 hours long because I was just cutting it up with Guy Fieri going into loads of restaurants in flavortown.
Sara:Yeah, but you have a really good t shirt of Diners and Drive-ins and Dives.
Meg:So basically I had Coronavirus - I ordered myself a t-shirt and like in the midst of the delirium and it's a Diners Drive-ins and Dives t-shirt but it's like a mash up with Dungeons and Dragons. It's like a dragon and but the dragon has Guy Fieri's hair and sunglasses.
Sara:Amazing.
Meg:That's actually probably my best thing from this week and any other week. Go on, what's what's happened with you?
Sara:Really nothing to be honest. Had a birthday, had a wedding anniversary. Meg bought me a rose and the best bit about it is it's called Dame Judi Dench off off actual Dame Judi Dench.
Meg:Yeah. Got you Judi.
Sara:So she's in a pot, and I've done everything that it said to do with her. And if she dies, I will give up with gardening because I don't know what else to do.
Meg:Right? So go on, series three.
Sara:Oh, yeah. Series three, we decided that we would push ourselves out of our Leeds Museums comfort zone.
Meg:Can you hear these swallows? By the way? If I do that?
Sara:No.
Meg:Can you not? Right. Thought that was loud. Go on. Tell you what was loud - me just interrupting you doing that. Go on.
Sara:Yeah, a little bit. I thought you meant actual bird Swallows then as well. I was really impressed. You just meant swallowing your tea. Yeah, so we've decided that we will travel back in time for our first episode. And I was like, it's gonna be a simpler time. Like there wasn't the internet and Donald Trump and you had fewer things to worry about. But one big thing they did have to think about at this time was the bubonic plague. AKA black death. So yeah, bad. And then I thought, oh, god, it's kind of similar to now isn't it? And that wasn't intentional. But here we are. So that's about it.
Meg:I literally forgot how funny it is when you explain things it's amazing. Okay, so we're in the way what century are we in? 16?
Sara:Yeah, yeah. Well, it kind of spans. It spans a couple. It's Elizabethan Jacobean.
Meg:I literally did History at uni. And I still get confused with centuries. Like, I think I have to double check in my head and go right, it's literally like one above what it actually is.
Sara:Yeah. Well about this time, when said subject was born, wasn't it the change of the calendar...
Meg:Why aren't you telling people what it is? You're allowed to say, they're listening.
Sara:Oh, yeah. Yeah, Shakespeare. So our guest today is Anjna Chouhan. She is from Shakespeare's Birthplace Trust, and she is a senior lecturer. She is a doctor of Shakespeare. She absolutely loves it and we love her for it.
Meg:Anjna is coming on to tell us all about Shakespeare's Birthplace Trust and the collections there and literally answer all of our silly little questions about Shakespeare
Sara:I'm so glad we've come into series three with a really(laughing). confident, non-imposter syndrome attitude.
Meg:Yeah, no, we're amazing. Really, really good. Also, I bet this episode, you're going to bring up the fact that the colour purple was only worn by Royals, because you've talked about that endlessly for the last like two weeks after you researched it.
Sara:Anjna's gonna put it right and say that's correct. Sara. You're absolutely right. So.
Meg:Brilliant. I hope you do. Here we go, everyone, it's Anjna Chouhan's episode of Museums n'That. I feel like I should have said that in Shakespearean? Forsooth, Anjna Chouhan... I don't know any other Shakespeare words. I bet there is a thing online where you could just translate it. (typing and laughing) I just typed - sorry(laughing) - , I just typed Museums n'That into the Shakespeare translator. And it's Museums and Yond. Right, here's Anjna Chouhan's episode of Museums n'Yond. Enjoy. Firstly, thank you so much, Anjna, for coming on the pod. I'm literally so excited. I've got so many questions to ask you. But first, please, can you tell our lovely podcast listeners who you are and what you do?
Anjna:Well, first of all, hello, Meg. Hi, Sara. It's it's such an honour to be invited. So thank you. And for your wonderful listeners. My name is Anjna Chouhan, and I work at the Shakespeare birthplace trust in Stratford upon Avon, where I have the pleasure of being Senior Lecturer in Shakespeare studies. So I have the absolute audacity to assume that I know and can talk about Shakespeare all day.
Meg:The first question we have Anjna is, what's your best Shakespeare play? What's your best one?
Anjna:(laughing) This is really this. I'm really curious about what other questions you've got lined up for me. But people often ask me that and without sounding boring., it really depends on my mood. But in terms of my favourite or my best, it kind of rotates between, like a bunch of really depressing one. So it rotates between King Lear and Measure for Measure. And Hamlet, and I absolutely love Troilus and Cressida, and yeah, I just I kind of love them all. Well, there are a few I don't like so much.
Meg:What's your worst one?
Anjna:Ah, this is kind of controversial, but you know, whatever. I really hate and I mean, hate The Tempest. I think it's just I think it's such a waste of time. I genuinely don't think that people would give it the time of day if if we suddenly discovered that it was by Fletcher or Middleton for example.
Sara:The absolute sass.
Meg:The Tempest is actually my favourite one.
Anjna:So I am sorry. Why did you like it?
Meg:I just feel like I like anything involving like the sea. And also I like the adaptation where it's Helen Mirren as Prospero. I feel like Helen Mirren's just sensational.
Anjna:Ben Wishaw aswell, because he played Ariel in that one.
Meg:He sure does. This actually brings me on nicely to our next question, which is, so we know what your best one is. But what's your best adaptation one?
Anjna:Oh my word. I don't really know where to start. One of the most memorable things that I've ever seen, isn't
Sara:That's adorable. actually Shakespeare. But one of the most memorable Shakespeare's
Anjna:When we were talking about this, it was all like that I've seen was Gregory Doran's production of Julius Caesar. And it was with an all black company. Absolutely love that production. It wa profound. The play is astoundin based around like who the fittest people were in each of anyway, and it had Ray Fearon in it so I had my mother sat n xt to me kind of elbowing me i the ribs going look at that. L ok at that. the adaptations like that one of what's it called? The one where it's like Keanu Reeves. Oh, Much Ado About Nothing.
Meg:Yeah, literally so fit it's crazy.
Sara:What an excellent human being. So, this is more of a serious question. I suppose. I tried to do a bit of research on you. But then I got really intimidated because I did English at University and Shakespeare was hard. But I would like to know what your special interest is particularly for Shakespeare.
Anjna:Wow, this is really good question. Sara. Thank you. And I'm sorry that you were intimidated. That is just not the intention. I hope I'm like cuddly and friendly and not...
Sara:Yeah, absolutely. Not intimidated by you as a person but by the Shakespeare world. It's just so massive. And I mean, yeah, to try and hold that in your brain is incredible.
Anjna:I have a go, I attempt. And I would say that my specialism has been Shakespeare in the 19th century, anything Victorian kind of completely floats my boat, as well as Shakespeare. So I kind of combine the two, but specifically, and apologies to your listeners who might be falling asleep at this point, but it was specifically about the church and maybe like anti-Catholic responses to Shakespeare or pro-Catholic responses to Shakespeare and how Shakespeare got co-opted by the Church of England to support some of its themes or maybe kind of non-conformist... non-conformist celebrations of things like tetotalism weirdly, and and how he got kind of involved in those sorts of debates and became popular. But since I started working at the trust, which was in 2012, I've kind of... Well I've branched out back into the early modern period. So I have like a massive interest in early modern culture and early modern theatre and
audiences:who they were, what they were like, what their behaviour was like. So yeah, I kind of just talk about all of those things.
Meg:Anjna, you mentioned that about working with the Shakespeare birthplace trust. So have you always been a lecturer there?
Anjna:This is I mean, the trust is a really complex organisation. It's wonderful it is it is a museum. But it also has a collection, and it has an education department. And so I sit within its Education team. As a lecturer. You're quite right. So I went in, I was employed as a full time lecturer. And then in 2018, I became senior lecturer, which is amazing. I'm still amazed that they trusted me so much to give me that title. And I guess I exist over at the higher education, secondary school leisure learner level. So I kind of talk to those audiences.
Meg:You mentioned there about the collection, and I really want to find out more about it. So what is what is the collection there like?
Anjna:Our- so it is kind of like yours, incredibly broad. It was, I mean, it was started in 1847. The first thing we collected if you like, was Shakespeare's birthplace. And we have five historical properties, which are our visitor attractions, but they are museum objects. So they constitute, I guess, the cornerstones of the collection. But we also have documents and books, we have a library. And we have a separate museum collection as well, all of which forms one of the largest Shakespeare collections in the world. And it's one of the most formidable. There are around about 103 documents that refer to Shakespeare during his lifetime, that refer to him by name, 103 of those that exist, and the trust holds 31 of those. So that's an enormous privilege. So we've got really cool stuff like that. But we also have really quirky fun things. Lego donated us a bust of Shakespeare, which is just one of the coolest things I've ever seen. It took them nine days to make, but it's got like, it's got over 3000 pieces. It really is a wonderful thing. But their collection is so vast. We're also a local history archive. So we often have the reading room, obviously pre-lockdown the reading room's always full of people who are kind of researching their family histories. But yeah, it's it's a wonderful archive. And there are still things that we're discovering within it. And like some of the really cool things that we've we've discovered over the years, you know that they're still coming to light. I mean, a couple years ago, I say a couple I think it was 2017 we had a research student that was working with us. And she found a version of Herbert Beerbohm Tree's production of Julius Caesar, which he performed at his own theatre, Her Majesty's Theatre in the late 1890s. And it was a hand illustrated version of that text by an artist called Ethel Waybelling. And one of our students just kind of found it and we kind of didn't know it was there. It wasn't catalogued or anything. So I mean, when we find things like that, it's just it's really, really exciting. And it's nice to be a part of that discussion and the electricity of being in a kind of organic, ever expanding collection.
Sara:That's amazing.
Meg:When you were saying about the documents that you've got, so you said 31 that you've got at the SBT. Do you call it the SBT? By the way?
Anjna:Yeah, SBT, we shorten it to SBT. Just generally, the public don't have a clue what we're talking about.
Meg:So one of our sites is Leeds Discovery Centre. But if you work there, it's generally known as the disco. So it's like just popping down to the disco. But I forget that other people don't know what that means. But so the documents that you've got, like, what kind of things? Are they things that shape... like... yeah, what are they?
Anjna:Meg they are amazing. So they're... They range from things like legal documents that tell us about land and property that he purchased and owned, there are things that pertain to his his family members, so things that refer to his father in particular, his father was kind of like a bit of a wheeler dealer chappie. It's such a fascinating, you can kind of imagine, much of what we know about text Shakespeare kind of is speculation, joining the dots between all these documents that we do have, but I think he can draw a pretty kind of clear picture of who John Shakespeare was, it's sort of Del Boy of early modern Stratford, I love it's a great, it's a great image. But there are also documents of people referring to him connecting him as a playwright, as poet and as a man from Stratford. And these are kind of the foundational bits of evidence that we have that connect the, the man of Stratford to the playwright of London, to the actor in London, to the property holder in in Stratford itself. So those kinds of documents are actually incredibly important and valuable, but they're also really just, they're just really fun. Like, for example, there's there's a really fun document from 1597 so the same year that shakespeare bought New Place, but his father ended up selling a bit of his land on Henley Street, which is where the birthplace is. And I work in the building next door to that. And he ended up selling less than a yard of land to his neighbour George Badger for some money and you kind of think how desperate do you need to be to be selling less than less than a yard of land.
Meg:What's George badger doing with that land?
Anjna:I don't know. 'Cause the document doesn't expound on on his plans for it. But yeah, it's just sort of fun little things like that. And actually, on the subject of New Place, we do actually have a student looking at archaeological findings and discoveries and trying to reimagine the interiors of what New Place would have looked like. So there's that kind of research like that, that goes on using those documents and using the kind of evidence that we have and around the people who lived in Stratford contemporaneous to Shakespeare.
Sara:Wouldn't it be exciting if Farrow and Ball did a range and it was like Shakespeare's breath, you know, they have elephants breath. I mean, what colour palette would you go for? I suppose you know, it's the it's the Golden Age, isn't it? So there's, there's a lot going on. Elizabethan, Jacobean, it's just so much to work with.
Anjna:I just imagine brown.
Sara:I did think that I was like, come on, I gotta make it more exciting.
Meg:Right. Now we're talking about colours. The last week, she's mentioned four times that royalty is connected to the colour purple.
Anjna:You're right, Sara.
Sara:And I thought I might come dressed all in purple. And then I realised I don't actually have anything. But yeah, that paupers weren't allowed to wear purple. And it was kind of like treasonous activity. If you have the audacity to go around in a purple hoodie, obviously, then, you know, Elizabeth was going to come along, or James and not be very happy about that.
Anjna:You're quite right. It's an interesting one, because I think they did politicise around, you know, colours, but primarily it was to do with what you were able to afford, because realistically, most people just couldn't afford any garments that was dyed the colour purple. I mean, it was it was an astoundingly expensive thing.
Meg:Um, do you have any? Not you personally? Or you might? I don't know. Do you have any like of Shakespeare's clothes or like belongings?
Anjna:This is an excellent question, Meg. And it's, I mean, in short, it's difficult to say, I mean, no. However, we do have in our collection at the chest, a signet ring, that dates to the late 1500s. And it has the initials w s, on them on it, rather, and it is it's widely claimed that it belonged to William Shakespeare, but I mean, we're quite open about the fact that we don't really know. The only belongings if you like, is the house on Henley Street. Because New Place that he bought in 1597, it was called the Great House. It was so fancy, it was like he was totally making a statement by buying it. But that doesn't exist anymore. It was pulled down. First of all, by the Clopton family who bought it after his granddaughter died, she died without any heirs. So their property passed out of the family. So they tore it down and rebuilt something that was a bit more to their tastes. And then, years later, in the late 1700s, Reverend Gaskell purchased what then was known as New Place, and he was so... Well, rumour has it that he was so fed up with all the people trundling along to his house and saying, 'can I look at Shakespeare's house, please look at the mulberry tree in the garden', he got so fed up allegedly of that, that he tore the house down completely, so it doesn't exist anymore. There's just the footprint of it. So there isn't much that you know, physically belong to Him, or that we can trace back to him personally. Although, over the years, there have been so many fascinating claims of like, ooh, this chair is something he would have sat in when he went to visit that inn over in spitalfield or this was something that he would have laid down in or there's a bed that we have at Anne Hathaway's that people often claim belonged to him that he would have slept in. But we kind of have no way of verifying and I think that's part of the excitement. The Trust has been going since, you know, officially since 1891. They purchased the house in 1847. So we've had hundreds of years of people collecting and telling fun stories about things and some of the stuff in our collections is is kind of like openly fake, you know, people just donating things and saying, Oh, this is a lock of Shakespeare's hair and it just obviously isn't, but they're quite fun in and of themselves about the kind of history if you like of people, inventing narratives around Shakespeare inventing souvenirs. So in short, Meg no, but there is a fascinating story to be told about all of these things that are allegedly connected to him.
Meg:For sure. I feel like when I was looking on your website and looking at the things that, like, were in the collection, a lot of the stuff was about the tree, and the mulberry tree. And like things being made out of the... like this, this chest is made out of the mulberry tree. And I'm like, as I was flicking through the pictures, I was like, omg wow, like that thing is made out of wood that Shakespeare, like had in his garden, like, how is that even a thing that that makes you feel? It's crazy. But do you ever get like, do you ever get people crying? Or like getting really overwhelmed?
Anjna:Do you know we have a wonderful set of guides in the different properties, they always used to tell fantastic stories of people from all around the world. Our visitors come from around about 86 plus different countries in you know, physically. And some of them talk about it in terms of making a pilgrimage like this is a lifetime of wanting to come to Stratford and pay their respects and show their love and appreciation, I guess. For Shakespeare's works and his writing and how that's touched them personally. And absolutely, there are people that that burst into tears, people have burst into spontaneous song. I remember somebody telling me once that there was a person that had come from Japan who just wanted to pray, they just stood still and just offered a prayer in Shakespeare's birthroom. And I think I think it represents an enormous kind of achievement, if you like for so many people that they've travelled miles 1000s of miles to come and just take a moment to be in a place that we know Shakespeare was also in, and a place that meant something to him, the house that in which he was born, the house that his father lived in and died in. It really is such a powerful, magical place to be.
Sara:And I really want to go back now as well, though I have I haven't been since I was early teens out.
Meg:Oh, Anjna we're fully coming to see you after this.
Sara:Definitely once the world gets back into some sort of rhythm. We will be on a train down to Stratford that will be so exciting.
Anjna:Oh I can't wait. I'll show you that lego bust.
Meg:When you were saying about things being found out, like still being found out and like that student, who found that book? Are things still being... because like, if things in your collection aren't definitively like certainly this belonged to Shakespeare, is there still also people that are like searching for things that they can definitively say is? Or like - what are the things that are like newly being discovered? And like, do you ever? Sorry, this is literally the longest question of all time, but do you ever, like uncover, like, move something and then uncover something in the house? Or like, move something and find something on the walls or anything like that?
Anjna:Okay, this is a brilliant question or several questions. So I'll address the kind of first, bit initially, that people are always looking for things that have a specific physical connection to Shakespeare or a direct connection to him. And it's really hard to verify those things, you know, unless there are documents, which is why documents are very valued, because you can link them straight to him. So something as precious as Shakespeare's will, is amazing. But looking for actual objects. I imagine there are people that make a full time career out of doing this, but I can't I can't quite imagine what it is that they're finding. But the thing is, that, in reality, Shakespeare died over 400 years ago, right? So there's 400 years of stuff that accumulates not just from him, but inspired by him. And that's where the trust gets, in my opinion, it gets exciting, and it really shines because it becomes a repository for documenting Shakespeare's legacy. And so the stuff that gets added to it is objects, documents, books, and images as well. And we hold the Royal Shakespeare company's collection to so we keep their prompt book. So basically, this is continuing the narrative of Shakespeare throughout the centuries. And being a Victorianist, it started in the 19th century. So anything from anything from the 19th century, to me is just is is astounding. It's mind blowing. I mean, I remember when I first started working at the Trust, I went up to one of their shelves, and I just pulled something off the shelf. And it was completely random. It was in a like a long box. It was a souvenir programme of Herbert Beerbohm Tree's production of Richard the third from 1903. It was enormous, like really long, in the form of a scroll that I just unravelled. And it was this beautiful hand painted picture of Tree and his entire company acting out Richard the second. You know, it's incredibly elaborate with gold script on it. But that was just on a shelf in a strong room that people had sort of forgotten about. So you can imagine that stuff like that is being found all the time and stuff that we forget. We have an incredible team of archivists, librarians and museum experts, whose entire job is to take care of that stuff and they do a superb job of it. They really know what they're doing. And I just kind of nose around and poke in and out as and when. But there absolutely is loads to be discovered there. But Meg you asked about the houses. It's so exciting because quite literally just a handful of years ago, somebody was pootling around, I think they might have been doing some dating, some carbon dating around the house. And they went, they opened one of the doors that leads down to a miniature kind of cellar, if you like, round the back of the house that leads into the garden. And they discovered on the wall, a sort of little mark, which we actually didn't know was there before. And it was little, it turns out, it was a witch's mark, that people used to paint onto the walls to ward away evil spirits so they don't sour the ale. Because of course, people were brewing their own ales, and they would store them, you know, wherever they could store them. And we know that part of Shakespeare's birthplace was actually a tavern the Swan and Maidenhead inn for a long time. And so it's likely that they painted the witch's mark onto the walls and stored the ales down in that cellar and had the marks to ward away all the evil goblins and sprites and such, so that they wouldn't spoil their precious alcohol. It's very exciting.
Sara:Okay, this was an interesting one, we had a bit of a chat about this. So I did a bit of I did a bit of looking around. And obviously, with Shakespeare's grave, that's a really interesting thing in itself. Doesn't it feel totally bonkers that he's just right there? And isn't that just mad?
Meg:The question here Anjna really is: does it blow your mind?
Anjna:Meg and Sara, it totally blows my mind. I think it does for most people as well, but it makes it so much more real. And as you say, Sara, the grave itself is, you know, it's wonderfully looked after by the Holy Trinity Church in Stratford itself, and you can, you can go along and take a look at it. It really is... I mean, the church itself is beautiful. And again, it's sort of the Victorians loved it too, you know, and they did all sorts to it. And obviously, Shakespeare's there so they sort of venerated it. But the bust over the grave, as well, quite aside from the grave itself is an extraordinary artefact, because, you know, his family saw it, his wife saw that his children saw it. And to some degree, therefore, there's the expectation, or the anticipation, at least, that he might have looked like that, because we don't really know what he looked like, either. But one assumes that if, if they saw that, then it's it's part of, you know, the memorial to him.
Meg:In my head he looks like Joseph Fiennes.
Sara:Oh, that would be lovely. Or what's his name from the horrible histories version? He's rather lovely, too, isn't he? Or anybody! (laughing) David Mitchell, who else? They're all lovely aren't they? (laughing) What was I saying? Graves! The bust! Yeah. But the grave itself. I think there have been digital scans taken of it and tried to work out what's underneath it. And it turns out his head was missing. So yeah, no, it does make it very real. And it means that when people do come along to Stratford from any part of the world, that they can do that sort of life journey that they can follow in his footsteps that sort of cradle to grave short journey around Stratford to kind of feel a bit closer to the roads he would have walked along in the sights you would have seen and I know it obviously looks different now. But there are elements of Stratford that haven't changed too, you know, enormously. For example, the market cross that was in the town itself, we just have in our collection, it's in our exhibition, you can walk past it. It's just a lump of stone and it's enormous, but that's something that he touched that he saw probably kicked when he was a boy you know, maybe spat on possibly even urinated on who knows. But the point is, it was it was there it is quite arresting as a thought that there are things that we can interact with today. And know that somewhere in time, he was there too. It is mind blowing Meg.
Meg:In summary, yes, yes. Brilliant. Okay, so obviously like Shakespeare collections amazing, historic context, brilliant, but now Anjna we're going to go down to lowbrow town.
Sara:Sara and Meg's level.
Meg:First things first. Snog. Marry. Avoid: Othello, Hamlet, Macbeth.
Anjna:Okay, well, I think Othello is a massive avoid because we know what happens to his wives. Yeah, I mean, I get I mean, Hamlet's not... He's not really like a happy Chappie is he? So maybe would go snog. And then yes Macbeth because to all intents and purposes he's kind of vaguely happily married. He knows how to do it. So yeah, maybe that way.
Meg:Really good intel.
Anjna:You're really like nodding along, Sara so I'm assuming you've got strong feelings about this.
Sara:Yeah, well, we might have already played this game because I based mine on sort of either who they'd been played by and my personal experiences so I said avoid to Othello because I saw him at Leeds Playhouse played by Lenny Henry, and I will never forgive him for cheating on Dawn French. So, there we are. And then I went extremely low brow because I went for the Disney version of Hamlet and Macbeth, Michael Fassbender.
Anjna:You cannot argue with that.
Meg:I wanted to marry Othello guys. Or maybe I snogged Othello, I can't remember. I just felt like no... I just was like, he just loves he literally loves
Sara:I remember. Yeah. Desdemona so much it literally drove him... I mean, easily manipulated fine.
Anjna:There is that he is loves so much.
Meg:He loves her so much.
Anjna:He loves her so much but ge doesn't have many conversations with her Meg. So..
Meg:I'm not talker. I really am. (laughing)
Sara:Such a lie.
Meg:Can't shut me up.
Anjna:Anybody that Tom Hiddleston's played, frankly, if we're going by that, then Henry the fifth? Yes, please.
Sara:So if we were all characters, probably you start with yourself because it's easiest to do that. But if we were all characters, who would we be? Who would you put us at? Meg's decided who she would be quite strongly.
Anjna:Oh, goodness. Oh, look at Okay, this is this is this is interesting. I'm gonna say, you know what I probably do, I'd probably go straight for a comedy. That's where I'm reaching. And I'd probably say like Rosalind and Celia. Yeah, because they're both really peppy, and they both just get on with things and have a lot to say, and are loving life. Both of them are loving life. And I think that's what's so wonderful about the play of as you like it, they they just embrace and they earn the right to survive, you know, to make it to the end, which is no small achievement in a Shakespeare play if you make it there. Yeah, I'd go Rosalind and Celia, I think Meg, Celia and Sara, Rosalind.
Meg:I like the fact that we've earned the right to survive.
Anjna:Yeah.
Sara:Can you let Anjna know ho you decided you would be eg?
Meg:Yeah, no, I was just like, Yeah, I'd be Shakespeare. In like, 400 years, people are going to be making podcasts about me. They're going to be down in Bracknell at my birthplace.
Sara:And no love lost. You decided I was Iago. So how we feel about each other, which is excellent. Who would you be Anjna?
Anjna:Oh, I probably want to be somebody who gets some say over stuff that goes on. So I quite like the idea of being like the Countess in All's Well That Ends Well, or Volumnia in Coriolanus, who has so much power that her son Coriolanus can kind of like sack Rome. But the one person he'll listen to is his mother, I kind of want that sort of power.
Sara:Yeah. And an excellent name.
Anjna:Next question is generally based around being in Stratford upon Avon. And there being lots of potential celebrities walking around, like actors. So have you ever seen or met any celebs Anjna? I have. Yes, I do. And I often see people pootling around and you know, we, some of them actually just turn up in the gift shop. So I know that Joseph Fiennes Meg, you're gonna love this, Joseph Fiennes came to the gift shop. There's a picture of him holding something I know. Well, quite. And I missed him that day. So the disappointment is seeping out of our pores. But yes, so he was around. I think, I think David Hasselhoff turned up at one point, very briefly, really, and he I don't think he came in I think he took a picture outside the gates and then it was all over, like, everything that he was there. But yeah, there are people because obviously lots and lots of wonderful performers play at the Playhouse so you see them around town, but they come in to the Shakespeare centre as well to come and talk to our students and come and do interviews with us and they're often really just really really wonderful and have so many fantastic stories to tell. The only time I've like freaked out and fan girled was when Caroline Quentin came in and it was in the summer so it was like boiling hot but she came in and she's just like this ball of energy and she was like bouncing around and I totally fan girled and selfied but she was so kind about it. Although she's like in Bridgerton really really briefly as a slightly not nice character, but like really briefly, but we need like a Bridgerton style Shakespeare don't we. Although there is Upstart Crow which I absolutely love? I think that's hilarious.
Sara:That is hilarious. I think you're always going to end up, a bit like with Bridgerton, with a lot of people going well, it's not very true form and you know...
Anjna:But it's not supposed to be, I think that's it's value. I think that's where it's excitement comes that it's being irreverent and that there's enough time and distance and space and understanding of the period to know that it's not accurate, that it's just fun storytelling with great performers and fun writing and why not? There's a space for that, especially now.
Meg:Okay, so Anjna, we've reached the final two questions slash three questions of our pod. First one is what's been your favourite day of work?
Anjna:You know, I knew you were going to ask me this question. And I was, I was seriously thinking about it this morning. And I do have an answer for you, but just a kind of Asterix before is that most days are pretty damn awesome at the Shakespeare birthplace trust, because every single day is radically different. And I have done some crazy things there. And, you know, a normal day could involve me carrying fake severed heads around the building, or life size models of Shakespeare, which we have. Or you know, picking cheese out of the carpet, and all of those things are slightly fun. But I'd say that when I was thinking about it this morning, I thought the most memorable thing was in 2014, we were kind of mid switching around our main exhibition before you enter Shakespeare's birthplace. And when we were in the switch around period in 2014, there was basically this kind of open free for all period, where people in the building could go into the exhibition and sort of reclaim anything that was in it, that they that they wanted, you know, things that were left behind and not put in the skip. So I went down, and it was just, it was just kind of like various members of the education department. But I went down into this like, exhibition, it was covered in dust. Because all the workmen were there, they'd pull everything off the walls, and it was just, it was dusty, and dark. And I just gathered up these enormous portraits of like, there was, there's one of Leonardo DiCaprio and one of David Tennant and just like gathered - they were enormous as well, like bigger than I was - and just carried them up the stairs. And I think at the end of the day, I was just covered in dirt, and ickyness and probably dust mites. But it was so much fun just reclaiming all this random stuff in this exhibition. And I think we ended up saving a full size replica of the Philip Sutton portrait of Shakespeare as well. So I think it's just kind of like moments like that, where you think we've saved a piece of something that was part of the history of this organisation and the way we communicate with the public and those things could so easily get lost. So I had a lot of fun rescuing Leonardo DiCaprio that day.
Meg:Brilliant. Being covered in dust, for any reason might as well be because you're carrying Leonardo DiCaprio?
Anjna:Well I mean, quite.
Sara:So we're down to our last question, which is kind of a bit of a first of all, a bit of a summary like takeaway for our listeners about what we've talked about today. And you can plug anything, any particular projects that you may or may not be starting soon. But yeah, anything that you want to tell our listeners?
Anjna:Oh, yes. So the Shakespeare birthplace trust has a podcast of its own, called Shakespeare Alive. And it's all about conversations with people that are working with Shakespeare today. I'm always really fascinated by people who kind of, I guess, like me, have made a career out of Shakespeare. He pays the bills, I like to joke, but there are loads of people for whom that is the case. So we talk to all kinds of people, theatre makers, illustrators, reviewers, artists, who engage with Shakespeare as a sort of career or as a, you know, all consuming hobby. And it's me and my colleague, Paul Edmondson, we co host it. We've talked to some fantastic people. And we are just coming to the end of our second series and launching series three in April. So for your listeners, if you're interested, please go and check it out. And then on a personal note, I've made my own podcast which launches in March 2021. And it's called Shakespeare's Pants.
Sara:Hooray!
Anjna:And it's all about, hurrah, it kind of is about pants. It's about domestic life, and how it maps over to Shakespeare in the early modern period. So it's all about the sort of things that we consider beneath us, I think when you're when you're in, I guess, in academic world, so just normal domestic life, like what was it like to wash your hair? How did you go to the toilet? How did you brush teeth? What was it like trying to have a bath? For instance, did people do it? How often? Just kind of questions about... I mean, life is hard enough when you've got all the tools at your disposal. So how did people cope with it back then? And if that kind of thing floats your boat, definitely go and check it out.
Sara:Obviously, because you said that absolutely beautifully and so eloquently, we're now going to take it down a notch and ask what your favourite all time actual takeaway is.
Anjna:Again I knew you were gonna ask me this and like if we have takeaway which is rare but it's always the same thing if we do and it is... Thai curry from one specific restaurant called the giggling squid which is right in the middle of Stratford. Meg you look excited!
Meg:I love the giggling squid! So much.
Anjna:Who doesn't love the giggling squid. It is just... it's quite literally our go to. If we have takeaway is coming from giggling squid and it usually is salt and pepper squid to start and red Thai curry with chicken or their pad thais and, frankly, everything on the menu. So yeah. it's good.
Meg:So good. I totally agree with that. But I also feel stressed about you getting squid at the giggling squid because ordering it, it's just like that squid is not giggling anymore.
Anjna:Well it was at one point. That's consolation enough.
Meg:Yeah, that's such a good one. I love it when people do ones that I know. Yeah.
Sara:I'm just loving... I think we're gonna have to put a list together because they all have such incredible names. I feel like takeaways and hairdressers, they can get away with all of the funs.
Anjna:Places in Stratford have the advantage of being able to steal from Shakespeare so everything's like a pun on Shakespeare or some kind of, you know, allusion to his works or plays. So we've got a food of love right opposite us on Henley Street.
Meg:Yes. I guess we have, like, Mel B.
Anjna:I used to love the Spice Girls. I think the first tape I ever bought was the Spice Girls tape.
Meg:Oh my god, Anjna. Holy moly. This is literally I've just realised that the first CD that I ever bought for my Walkman was Shakespeare's way with words by one true voice. I've been embarrassed about that for like 20 years. And now I feel like it's just come full circle. And I can tell you that and it just it's all been worth it.
Anjna:No need to be embarrassed. We are shame proof.
Meg:Oh I love that so much, Anjna, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You just smashed it. So thank you so much.
Anjna:Thank you for inviting me! This has been such a pleasure. It really really has. It's been an honour and your pod is so cool. You guys are amazing. And you should be so proud of what you've achieved.
Meg:I feel like Anjna's the modern day Floella Benjamin, but also at the same time, Floella Benjamin is a modern day Floella Benjamin. So I don't want to shade Floella. Anyway, it's fine. Anjna is lovely. And I really enjoyed that. Did you?
Sara:Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I worry that it was definitely one of those episodes where we just forgot that we were doing a podcast. I mean, I could listen to her talk all day. She has so much in her head that is just waiting to be... (laughing) I don't know why these things keep popping into my head.
Meg:Were you going to say milked?
Sara:No, but there is an episode and I don't know whether it's like The Simpsons or something. And it's just it's just like a serial killer sort of thing. And it's just like waiting to be bashed out. I don't want to bash her part of her brain. Yeah, it was really lovely speaking to Anjna, and she has really great Shakespeare knowledge. And I feel very silly.
Meg:You'd hope so, as a literal doctor of Shakespeare. Also, we had literally so many more questions than we actually asked her. I felt like I still want to, I thought we just scratched the surface a little bit, I feel like I still wanna go? And like see the stuff?
Sara:Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it in context would be absolutely excellent.
Meg:What was your best learn? First learn of the series this, Smez, make it a good one.
Sara:I know. I know. I really enjoyed hearing about how documents are the only thing that really links us to Shakespeare and otherwise, we kind of don't know a lot about him in terms of tangible objects and stuff that we have. You know, it's documentation. And it's stuff like his dad selling a piece of land that was a yard, but also...
Meg:Yeah, to George Badger.
Sara:To George Badger. What a great name.
Meg:Also do you know what question that we didn't ask, which I'm annoyed about, but I really wanted to know, gotta call her up again. Basically, I really want to know, is there anyone that's related to Shakespeare?
Sara:Oh, yeah. Because she did mention that the reason that their house got pulled down was because his granddaughter passed away and she didn't have any heirs. I didn't know whether that meant that that was the end of the line. We should have asked she was literally the perfect time.
Meg:Go on, ask me mine.
Sara:Right. So what was your best learn Meg?
Meg:Mine was the witch's mark. You know when you ask a question and you're waffling a bit and you're like god, I literally dont know what I've just said. And I'm really glad that it kind of paid off and she came out with that little tidbit. I think that also we should get someone on the podcast from the Tower of London to talk about that room because I'm literally obsessed with it. Anything to do with like writing on a wall or like uncovering something in a wall. I love it. Something about walls. Also, did you notice how every time I asked a question, she would say, that's a really good question Meg.
Sara:Yeah, it was very cute.
Meg:I'm willing to bet that I'm not going to edit any of those out and that you will have all just heard those because I'm going to leave them in forever.
Sara:Just be your own benefit. Yeah yeah yeah.
Meg:Okay. Do you want to do the thanks?
Sara:Thanks. So big thank you to Tim Bentley for our theme tune which, even though when we're recording this we obviously don't have it on because of the magic of editing. But we do sing it in between each bit anyway. So thanks for that. Alex Finney for our cover artwork of which I am now out of badges for so that's going to have to happen again.
Meg:Out of George Badges?
Sara:Literally out of George Badges. I would also like to thank Meg because she's pulled together series three, without much of my help, so apologies for that, and well done. Well done, well done Guy, thank you for everything. As
Meg:And I would like to thank Guy Fieri. ever, please help us by subscribing or, and or, leaving us a review because we like them. You can follow us on social media if you want to get in touch. I'm @MuseumMeg. Sara is@saralmerritt. And you can also tweet us @LeedsMuseums. That's me behind the screen there. That's me. That's me behind the keyboard. Coming up next time... I actually don't know what order I'm going to do these in Smez. So I think that we should just leave it as a surprise, but know that it's gonna be good. And this series is gonna be very varied. So I'm excited. Yeah. Thanks for listening everyone, and we will see you next week. Actually, we won't see you next week because you can't see us. We will (laughing) we will be in your ears next week. Right excellent finish...
Sara:Smooth.
Meg:Literally forgot what a podcast was. Brilliant.
