A benign environmental dictator

Sustainability! Climate! Museums! Longshore Drift! All the main hitters.

Talking us through it all is the powerhouse that is Sara Kassam (2 Sara's and a Meg - you're welcome) the benign environmental dictator at UK Sport and previous Sustainability Lead at ye olde V&A.

Sara is also Sustainability Advisor at the Museums Association, and most importantly of all, has great taste in snacks.

If you liked the episode, listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.

Transcript

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Moderator 1: I feel like I've got that thing you know when people sound like they need to cough. I think that's just what my voice is like. It sounds like I'm straining my voice sometimes. 

Moderator 2: I've not noticed, but now I will. 

Moderator 1: Hell. 

Moderator 2: I'll tell you what isn't hell, museums and that, so welcome to the Museums and That podcast where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums and Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. 

Moderator 1: I was really helpful there because I did a little wiggly dance as you said it. 

Moderator 2: Yes, I know, I saw that. Also I looked away from you because I feel like saying that looking directly into your eyes is weird. 

Moderator 1: It's like our vows, every time. 

Moderator 2: Yes. No thank you. 

Moderator 1: No thanks. 

Moderator 2: Hello, how are you? What's are you doing? What's new? 

Moderator 1: Hello. What's new is I got older this week. 

Moderator 2: Oh, yes. 

Moderator 1: I'm going to get older every day, that's how it works. 

Moderator 2: Happy bday. 

Moderator 1: Thanks so much. My team bought me a new water bottle because they think my other one is really embarrassing. 

Moderator 2: How many waters have you had today? 

Moderator 1: I've had 500 plus a cup of hot water and a cup of tea and a cup of coffee. 

Moderator 2: No, that doesn't count, I hate it when people say that. 

Moderator 1: Why? Of course it counts. 

Moderator 2: No, it doesn't count. 

Moderator 1: That is rubbish. 

Moderator 2: Tea and coffee is not the same as drinking water is it? My mum's like this. My mum's like, 'I have squash,' it's not the same. I've got an itchy nose, sorry. 

Moderator 1: Right, is that your thing from this week? 

Moderator 2: Yes, I've got a well itchy nose. I get this scab on my nose, sorry, it's absolutely disgusting. 

Moderator 1: I've heard this story so many times. 

Moderator 2: Have you? 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Have I told you before? Just in winter I get a little scab on the inside of my nose and it's so sore. And sometimes I feel self conscious about it because it gets red. 

Moderator 1: Yes. It must be really hard to have an absolutely minuscule cut on the inside of your nose that you get self conscious about. 

Moderator 2: Do you want to see it? 

Moderator 1: No. 

Moderator 2: It's awful. 

Moderator 1: No. I don't want to see up your nose, no thank you. 

Moderator 2: Okay. Anyway, my think from the week wasn't my nose, it was actually about lettuce. 

Moderator 1: Okay. What's your best lettuce? 

Moderator 2: I'll tell you what mine is. 

Moderator 1: Alright, okay, what's yours? 

Moderator 2: Mine is a Butterhead lettuce. 

Moderator 1: A Butterhead lettuce, is it? 

Moderator 2: And I had it for my lunch. What's yours? 

Moderator 1: Right, I really want to say Fricassée. But I don't like it, I just like saying that. 

Moderator 2: I've never even heard of that one. 

Moderator 1: It's a bit peppery, and it's a bit, you know, sometimes when you put a salad leaf in you mouth and it doesn't all go in and then you're like, 'Oh Christ,' and there's a lot going on. 

Moderator 2: Yes, and then you feel like damn rabbit, and you're like, ugh. 

Moderator 1: Yes, and then I just, like, have to get it all in, anyway. 

Moderator 2: And then sometimes it goes down your throat but you haven't finished (talking over each other 02.19) and then it gets stuck. 

Moderator 1: Yes, no. But, you know, I like a baby gem. 

Moderator 2: Yes, baby gem is good. 

Moderator 1: I could talk about lettuce all day. Anyone wants to start a podcast about lettuce, I'm out. 

Moderator 2: Also, actually, if you're listening to this and you've got any thoughts, could you please tweet me them because I'd love to talk some more about lettuce. 

Moderator 1: Okay, yes. 

Moderator 2: Send me your favourite lettuce. Can't wait. Who are we interviewing today? 

Moderator 1: We are interviewing Sara Kassam. She's from UK sport actually, but she's also a trustee from Museums Association and she's previously worked at the V&A and other public sector bodies. And she is, like, crème de la crème knows her stuff about sustainability. So, that's why we wanted to talk to her. 

Moderator 2: Yes, she's really cool. Enjoy. This is Sara Kassam's episode of Museums and That. 

Moderator 1: Well, I learnt the other day, because everyone things that literally is the newest thing that everyone says all the time, but you don't mean it literally, but actually, it's something like from the eighteenth century that we used it in that way as well. So, we didn't literally mean it literally, but we'd use it as a filler. 

Sara Kassam: I love that. Centuries old. 

Moderator 1: Cool isn't it. 

Moderator 2: Fun facts. So, Sara, our first question that we ask all of our guests is, who the flip are you? 

Sara Kassam: Who am I? So, I am Sara Kassam. To confuse all your museum listeners, I work for UK Sport. So, I'm sustainability advisor here. I will tell you what UK Sport is, it's an arm's-length body of government and we're the high performance experts. It's all Paralympic and Olympic sport and it's all about powering (ph 03.41) athletes, teams, sports and major events. I'll give you some museum credential. I'm also the climate change trustee for the Museums Association, and my last role was substantiality lead at the V&A. 

Moderator 2: A whole bunch of stuff. 

Moderator 1: A whole bunch of stuff. I have one question that is not related to any of this, but what is the funniest thing that you've worked on with UK Sport? Have you ever done a massive tournament and met someone? 

Sara Kassam: Have I done exciting things? So, I am entertainment lead for my team, sport agonistic, I don't follow any particular sport, I don't play a sport, I'm like this random museum person that's turned up. But one thing that we did do that was awesome actually, with my team we went to Loughborough and we tried wheelchair basketball, and that was pretty damn fun, it was pretty vicious really quickly, but just absolutely brilliant. There was a Paralympian who took us through it and it was just really fun. So, if you ever get a chance to play wheelchair basketball or watch it, because then I went to watch the wheelchair rugby actually. Again, absolutely incredible. 

Moderator 2: Okay. So, tell us how you got to be in the role that you are now, what's your background? 

Sara Kassam: What did I do? So, I have been in environmental stuff since I can remember, crushing cans in sixth form. I was environment officer with my two friends. Shout out to Nita and Haley. Yes, we were their, kind of, like, flying the flag for green issues as it was then. And then at uni I did geography. And I was environment and social justice officer on my student's university, University of Nottingham, was elected there. And that really shaped what I wanted to do, which was public service and sustainability. And, so, form then on I just did loads of jobs. I've worked in local government, I've worked in universities, engineering institutions, museum, and now sport. So, it's always been sustainability, but in different ways, at different levels. 

Moderator 2: Do you love longshore drift? 

Sara Kassam: Oh, I love a bit longshore drift (talking over each other 05.25), and some oxbow lakes and meanders. 

Moderator 2: I love oxbow lakes so much. 

Sara Kassam: The terminology. I've got some friends and we do just send each other geography chat because it's the best. 

Moderator 1: Right. Not geography chat but also it just reminded me. So, we're at Canary Wharf in this crazy HM government building. 

Moderator 2: It is wild. 

Moderator 1: It's wild. But what made me feel so much better that Sara felt exactly the same. She's just like, 'I don't know what's going on here, and I work here.' But water outside, right, why, what, how, where? 

Sara Kassam: Oh gosh, I feel I should know this. We had the sustainability manager of Canary Wharf come and talk to us about all of the dockland re-development, it's really interesting. 

Moderator 2: It's very pretty. 

Sara Kassam: It's really pretty, and they're actually going to do more to give people more access to the water, because at the moment you can't quite get at it. And you can do some kayaking and things that's pretty cold (ph 06.12) but I wouldn't do it. 

Moderator 1: Oh, right, okay, I love kayaking. 

Sara Kassam: Yes. There's open water swimming you can do as well. There's loads of stuff down there. It's all hidden. Canary Wharf is like this weird hidden secret because everyone sees it as corporate land, which I think it was. But, plug for the Museum of Docklands, if you go in there, history of docklands, it's all there for you. 

Moderator 2: We should go in. 

Sara Kassam: You should pop in, it's literally down the road, and it's awesome. So, yes, they do loads more biodiversity and stuff as well, so they've got some lovely garden spaces and things. 

Moderator 1: Do you know why the water is that colour? 

Sara Kassam: I'm going to say no. 

Moderator 2: I walked past and I was like, it's green, but a really nice green. 

Sara Kassam: A nice green, was it algae green, or? 

Moderator 1: No, it's not, it's almost like they've dyed it that specific green. It's like the colour I wish my eyes were. 

Sara Kassam: That's amazing. 

Moderator 1: Yes, it is good. So, it was always sustainability, and we had a brief chat before we started recording this, but museums are still taking their time to catch up with that. I think that's a fair if sweeping statement. But, like, have you found working across different public sectors and different bodies that there's, like, a running theme? Is it the same things again and again. 

Sara Kassam: Is it the same things? Let's think. I think the main difference now is that I'm not knocking on directors doors saying, 'Oh, we need to include this in our corporate plan, we need to do this, this and this.' It's now people coming to their sustainability professionals saying, 'We need to have one,' or, 'What are we doing on this?' Or, 'How are we meeting government targets or responding to the government requirements? Or whatever it might be. I think when I started a lot of it was around energy efficiency. So, one of my jobs when I worked in Richmond Council, I went to every single gas, electricity and water meter in the whole borough of Richmond Upon Thames, it was great, to do display energy certificates, crawling around. Every school, every library, every public sector building, the local authority was in charge of. So, a lot of it then was around energy saving and around money, which weirdly circular has now come back to with all the crises going on. So, there is one thing, I can't swear-, 

Moderator 1: You can swear, we have a little beep that we use, so you can swear. 

Sara Kassam: Thanks. 

Moderator 2: Beep beep. 

Sara Kassam: Massively. That all this stuff we have known about, we have been, like, people have been working on this stuff. It might not be core sustainability, it might be in the energy efficiency, it might be in water quality, it might be nature conversation, there's lots of different things that make up sustainability. Loads of people have been working on this stuff forever. People have been lobbying government, like, you know, we had great EU legalisation on environment, and it just feels like, I get so frustrated sometimes, I try not to be cynical, but we have been doing this stuff for years, and it's now like, everyone's excited and given it a flash new name and going to loads of round tables and things. It's like, 'No, people, we've had the technology, we've had the knowledge.' Things are moving, but fundamentally about wise use of resources and thinking about OUR impact on the world, but also humans not being-, humans have a sense of they see themselves separate to nature, when actually we're part of the ecosystem, we're not above it or outside of it, we're part of it. And I think because we don't think like that, we have this weird supremacist, like, nature supremacist view of ourselves of how we interact with nature and so on. So, I think that, yes, that's a really long-winded way of saying things have changed and haven't changed. 

Moderator 2: So, do you think that museums are slow to catch up with it? Or where do you think museums sit on that? 

Sara Kassam: Where do they sit? The thing is, interesting thing is, when I was at the V&A everyone was asking this as well. Everyone thinks that they're behind everyone. So, I came to sport, everyone was like, 'We're so behind.' I was like, 'You haven't worked in a museum have you?' And then you work in a museum, they're like, 'We're so behind,' and I was like, 'Oh, well you haven't worked at x, y, z.' It varies. So, I would say, like, the higher education sector, so far ahead, like, really far ahead. 

Moderator 1: Really? 

Sara Kassam: When I worked at UEL (ph 09.36), totally on the case, they were really, really on the case, just because there was various reasons. There was, like, HEFCE tied funding to carbon management plans, there's obviously lots of academics, there's lots of student push, there's lots of really interesting organisations around that sector working on sustainability. So, I'd say they're quite far ahead. So, what I found frustrating is when everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel. And the thing is that it's not are you behind or not behind, everyone thinks they're (TC 00:10:00) special, and nobody is special. People need to absolutely get over themselves. I was just having this conversation this morning my director, we all know that everyone thinks, 'Our sector is so unique and we have all these very particular problems.' And it's like, fine, you all have nuances, but generally nothing is insurmountable, everyone is shipping people and objects and things around the world, everyone is travelling, everyone is building things, you're all using resources. There's all these fundamentals that you're doing, and there's going to be someone, normally in a local authority or a university that has already worked through that, and you don't need to come up with some new guidance or procedure or methodology, you can borrow that and then build on it and tweak it for your own personal, you know, nuances and specialness. So, I think people need to move away through this, 

Are we behind? Are we not behind?' It literally doesn't matter. What matters is what are you doing now, and also, you're not special. 

Moderator 2: Yes, I completely agree with that. 

Moderator 1: You sound my therapist. 

Sara Kassam: I am mean. As my kids says, 'You are a mean uma (ph 10.56) sometimes.' I was like, 'Yes, I am.' 

Moderator 1: But this the thing because you go round in circles about it, and I think with museums especially ones that are houses in older buildings, there is red tape, there are issues, there are listings and all of that, but, kind of, just need to think about it a little bit differently and not use that as a barrier, use that as, 'Well, this is where we are, so this is what we've got to work with anyway.' 

Sara Kassam: Yes, that's absolutely it. And also, it's, like, this is fundamental, this is what I was saying in sport as well, it's fundamental to being able to do things that you want to do. Do you want to carry on playing sport? Well, actually, lots of skiing tournaments are being cancelled because there's no snow. So, if you want to carry on doing the things you love, if you want to carry on having museums and objects and all the wonderful stuff that comes with the sector, you need to be thinking about this stuff. 

Moderator 1: Yes, yes. And I think sustainability as well for us, it's climate, that's right at the top, but then it's longevity and relevance, and we're always asking this question, like, 'Why? What's the point? What are we doing it for?' Because you can't be living in this rose-tinted vanity view of, 'Well, we're doing it because that's what it's always been,' and also that we're doing it because it's a nice thing to do and we have these objects, or, I don't know, whatever your thing is. You have to get away from that train of thought and you have to start thinking with, 'Well, this is what we need to do first,' and we work back from there. And I think that's really hard for people and I understand that, you know, it means programming changing and different ways of working. But I think we're fortunate being part of Leeds City Council, so, Leeds City Museum is now completely gas free, there is no gas in that building. 

Sara Kassam: Oh nice, check you guys out. 

Moderator 1: I know right. We're part of the district heating system. 

Moderator 2: What does that mean? Gas free. 

Moderator 1: It means that nothing is run on gas in the building. So, like, no gas boilers. 

Sara Kassam: You can't fart in the building. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Never going to be allowed in there again. 

Moderator 1: I know, yes, well, your name is on the red list at City Museum. 

Moderator 2: Right, sorry, this is such a dumb question I thought that all boilers are gas boilers. 

Moderator 1: No. 

Moderator 2: What are boilers run on? 

Sara Kassam: You can heat the buildings in different ways. 

Moderator 2: Tell me about all the ways. 

Sara Kassam: Oh, no, don't. I used to work for an engineer institution and now I'm going to be tested on my engineering knowledge. 

Moderator 1: No, you're absolutely not. 

Moderator 2: Wait, but homes and stuff you do use gas boilers. 

Sara Kassam: So, homes you can change. So, people are switching out to air source heat pumps. So, it's basically like using a fridge, it's kind of the same technology. 

Moderator 1: You're looking at me like I know any more. 

Sara Kassam: You're nodding really encouragingly and I feel really bad because I have (a) studies this and (b) worked in this, and I can't articulately explain. Yes, it's basically using electricity but you're using it in a way that's much more efficient to heat your building. And, yes, there's some people that exploring things like hydrogen. There's people looking at more passive methods, so, like, how can you make your property or building really airtight and really think about those things, and then mechanically ventilate. Oh my goodness, it's amazing. What I said before about all the technology and stuff exists, it's all absolutely there, it all comes down to money and power and what people decide to do and what they decide to invest in. And, yes, gas boilers are a thing that everybody is used to, but actually, are there other ways of keeping ourselves warm. 

Moderator 2: When you go into a museum or an institution first comes to you and says, 'We want to be more sustainable, help us.' What are the things that you look at? 

Sara Kassam: What do I say? Right, so, the main thing is, why do you want to do this? Why is this very specific to your museum? What's your collection? What is your reason for being? What is your role in the community? So, really tie it to that. It's not like, 'We want to do sustainability because we think it's a thing that we have to do.' It's we're doing it because-, sustainability, it helps you deliver your organisation's purpose. So, like for the V&A, it's the museum of art and design, like, a lot of pollution and stuff is a consequence of bad design choices, and it's all about how society works. So, it's really leaning into, I hate that phrase, why did I use that? 

Moderator 2: We'll drill, don't you worry. 

Sara Kassam: But, yes, it's really, my goodness, corporate, corporate, ugh. But it's really focusing on what your organisation is about, like, you know, what is your collection? Why do you matter? And how is that then linked to the natural environment around you and resources and the planet? So, I'd say, focus on that, and that will help everything else flow in terms of when you're getting your staff on board, when you're getting your visitors on board, when you're getting people who your money from on board. Because you've really tied it meaningfully to your organisation's mission and purpose, otherwise it just feels a bit of a sham, it's just a surface thing. Start with that. Second, you can't manage what you don't measure. So, know what your impacts are. So, most people know their energy bills, right, they know their water bills because finance will be on it, you have all this data. So, it's working out, well, what is your carbon footprint? What is your environmental impact? So, get some of that information and work it out. You could do it internally, you might need to commission someone else to help you. A lot of people get scared by all the jargon and terminology. Scope 1, 2, 3 emissions, what do I do? There's loads of resources out there to help you that will drill it down and make it easy-, drill it down, make it easy for you. It's because you said it, that's why I said it. They'll, kind of, demystify that stuff for you. And it's basically about, yes, what are you spending money on? And then what is the carbon impact of that if you're looking at carbon? And then the third thing is be curious. So, everyone's an agent of change, this is my big thing. When you're a sustainability person, you're not going to make all those changes. What you need to do is upskill everybody, give them the confidence, the knowledge, the ideas, the space to chat and discuss and work through stuff, and they will go and do things, and they'll do amazing things. So, this is like what we did at the V&A, people went on carbon literacy training, they came on training about ethical finance, about biodiversity, about intersectionality and climate justice, all of that stuff, and then you apply it, like, you work in interpretation, you work in HR, you work in finance, you work in the state, you work in exhibitions. Whatever your role is, you absolutely can do something. And a lot of it is that being curious. You ask questions. 

A lot of people do things because they've always done it that way, they think it saves money or it's the most cost effective or time effective or they just can't be bothered to trial, think of a new solution. Often in museums things move so fast, you don't have the time or the brain space to take a step back and think, 'Could we do this differentially?' And then you need to corral, like, herd all those cats to help get on board with your idea. Like, you know, can we do this? And often you won't have success straight off. Sometimes you'll try a thing and have a really good intention, like, yes, we're going to ship all these objects by sea, and then something happens and you have to do airfreight and that's what happened. But don't be disheartened, continue. So, did I give you my three top things which was, yes, your purpose, your meaning. The second one is you can't manage what you don't measure. And your third one is be curious. 

Moderator 1: I agree. I like it. (talking over each other 17.35) anything else to add. 

Sara Kassam: I mean, I've just distilled this over years from talking to-, because I didn't just work at the V&A, but I did speak to a lot of other museums around the world, museums and galleries. And people would ask, 'How did you come up with the plan? What did you do first?' And often people, because there's so much out there, they just need to know where to start, so you just break it down into digestible chunks and not feel you have to do everything immediately. Like, yes, all these net zero targets and things are quite big and the feel quite overwhelming, but actually, like with anything in life, you break it down into manageable things and then you realise, 'Oh, actually, yes, we can do this.' And then you then you keep going. And often you're surprised by what you achieve and the momentum you pick up. Because we'd be like, 'Oh yes, we're not going to have domestic flights anymore even though we have a site in Dundee. Oh wow, the director has signed that off. That's amazing. That just happened.' And then suddenly people are coming to you with things. Not, how do I do this? It's, we did this one thing, and now we want to do another thing. So, I think that everyone is an expert in their own field, they just need a little bit of a push or a little bit of assistance, a little bit of help along the way. 

Moderator 1: Of those bite-sized chunks, what's the one thing that you find that museums are really happy to do and do quickly? Is it not travelling by air, shipping things? And what's the one that they're a bit more tentative about doing and that they leave until the end? 

Sara Kassam: That's interesting. 

Moderator 1: Whilst you think about that by the way, I'm going to have one of these chocolates. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, do. 

Moderator 1: Sara has brought in this little sweets. We didn't bring anything in, but they've like M and S dippy egg mini whips. 

Moderator 2: Yes, to be fair though, I'm scared we were going to get security, like, a HM government building, I don't know, and then we're going to the Tower of London later. 

Moderator 1: Milk chocolate filled with mallow and an orange flavoured sauce. 

Sara Kassam: Basically a fancy walnut whip. 

Moderator 1: Yes. This is not just a something, this is an M and S. 

Moderator 2: Mmm. That is really good. 

Sara Kassam: It's good right? And because they're mini, you don't feel overwhelmed. 

Moderator 1: So you can have more. 

Sara Kassam: Yes. 

Moderator 2: It's like Jaffa cake adjacent. 

Sara Kassam: Yes. 

Moderator 1: Jaffa cake adjacent? It's a lot more yellow than I thought I was going to be inside. 

Sara Kassam: They do all the flavours, I was quite excited. I love novelty seasonal chocolate, massive sucker for it. 

Moderator 1: You've open my eyes. It is better if you say it in French as well, like, bon bon de chocolat. Sorry, I realise I've asked you a million questions there. But when you go into shops, do you you get really stressed out because you're like, 'What's the most sustainable way to shop?' 

Sara Kassam: Absolutely, absolutely. I find it so stressful. I mean, I get rid of some of that by order meat from a farm that comes directly, and I know the farm. Milk comes in bottles, oat milk, that's fine. Like, a veg box, I get an odd box, which is fun, so, my fruit and veg. But it's not everything, right, there's still stuff that you buy. (TC 00:20:00) And I have children, and sometimes they request ridiculous things like, 'I want a cheese string, I want a packet of Pom Bears.' 

Moderator 1: Cheese string was the first thing that came to my mind as well. 

Sara Kassam: The packaging, and they know it, and so I very rarely get it. When I get it I was like, 'You know I hate the packaging,' and they're like, 'Yes, we know you hate the packaging.' They acknowledge it. Yes. I do find it very hard because it is things like, you know, is the chocolate fair trade? Is the fish MSC? There's so many things to look out for and it can be a bit overwhelming. So, I do find if I go to things like the refill shop, it takes away a lot of that stress for me. Because also the refill shop is fun because it's like giant pick and mix, often it's cheaper if you go to the one in Leytonstone that I go to, and it, kind of, gets rid of a lot of that quandary stuff, you're, kind of, like, I know this stuff has been sourced well and I'm reducing my packaging and so on and son. But I can't keep up all the time, like, sometimes I'll just be like, 'Oh, no, I've got to rush and just get this,' and then, yes, it's the quandaries. That's what I find actually bringing it back to organisations, you end up with paralysis because people feel like, 'Ah, we can't do it all and people are going to criticise us for flying and this and that, so, actually, we're not going to do anything, we're not going to go out publicly.' A big deal for me at the V&A was publicising everything. They've got the sustainability plan, it's all there, like, I wrote a blog about all the things that we were doing. Just be honest. You've got to be honest about what you found easy, what you found hard, how you might do things differently. How could you then work together. So, a lot of stuff is collective. So, if you look at Galleries Climate Coalition who I am in love with, they do some amazing stuff with sector collectively. Like, you know, everyone is having trouble with shipping, everyone is having trouble with packaging, what can we do? What can we do? Like you see in the government indemnity scheme now, they've reduced, they've relaxed some of those temperature requirements, which is massive for so many museums. So, there's that thing of, well, systems change, it's all about systems change. So, when you talked about what bit do people find hard to deal with, I think actually the thing that is missing is thinking in systems. So, rather than thinking in little bits, like, 'Oh great, we recycle the scraps in our café,' that's really important, that's really good, but actually, what is your system? What are you thinking about those big interconnections? So, read Donella Meadows' work, she's amazing, on systems and levers. But it's that idea of everything affects everything else, so you can't think of things in isolation. 

We're just going to do this environmental project here, and this one over there and that. It's got to be all connected. And I think museums do find it quite difficult because especially the bigger ones do tend to end up working in silos just through nature. Like, you find at universities and councils as well, everyone works in silos, and then you miss opportunities because people aren't talking to each other. So, really nice things that I've seen working in organisations and in museums are these sustainability champion groups and these network groups, because then it's great, you get all these people from different bits of the organisation talking to each other and saying, 'Well, I do this, and that impacts you,' but actually, could we do something differently? Yes, but we need to go and ask X and get some money from Y. And it's really hard, but it totally works, like I've seen it happen, you just need to have that little bit of thought and that passion to do something. You just need to channel that enthusiasm. So, that's what I found in the museum sector. Loads of really enthusiastic, passionate people, that just need a little bit of channelling. And it's, kind of, like, I say that here as well, UK Sport, it's like everyone's got their own super powers. Do you remember Captain Planet? Did you ever watch her? You're going to be too young. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Sara Kassam: Captain planet, thank you. 

Moderator 2: What's captain planet? 

Sara Kassam: Only the best show of all time (talking over each other 23.12). So, there was five children from around the world, they had special rings with powers, so, it's like heart (ph 23.17), wind, water, earth, fire. And then when combined those rings, then captain planet, the superhero, would appear. And they would go and do things, like they were trying to save planet earth, who was voiced by Whoopie Goldberg the first few series, and then they would, like, you know, work against all these polluters. It was way, way, way ahead of its time, an amazing, amazing kids cartoon. Watch it, everyone watch it. But it's that thing, everyone's powers combine to come up with this superhero. And that's exactly what organisations do. You're all experts in your own areas, you just need to combine those powers, you can do great things, I'm genuinely not saying it in a cheesy, because I'm an ultimately cynical person right. But it's just because I've seen it work. I've seen it work in museums and I'm seeing it work here. Like, everyone does come together to do good things. 

Moderator 1: Yes. And I think there's a lot of fear around people think it's more work and it's not their job and it's not their area of expertise, but you don't need to be an expert, you need to open yourself up to be willing to take a bit of a risk. 

Sara Kassam: Absolutely, yes. 

Moderator 2: Do you think it's competitive as well, that people are like, 'We want to be doing sustainability better than you are so we don't want to work with you and tell you what we're doing'? 

Sara Kassam: I don't know. I think it's more that they don't know how they could be doing it. But then if you open it, like we had this great session at the V&A and it was on finance, ethical finance, and everyone was like, 'Oh, changing your pension has a much bigger impact than going vegan?' There were all these really interesting things. 

Moderator 2: Really? 

Sara Kassam: Yes, yes. That's what we learnt. So, yes, where your money is invested is a massive, massive deal, and that's huge in terms of museum sponsorship and people wanting money to be able to put on good public programme, but then also who you're taking money from. And there's loads of protests around that. So, it's balancing all those things. But, yes, I think a lot of it is about it's more the knowledge and feeling they've got time and feeling that it's not a flash in the pan. Because as I say, people have been doing sustainability for years. I found these great minutes from the V&A from fifteen years ago where they were talking about climate, and it was really amazing stuff, and I was like, 'Oh my goodness, look at this.' So, people have been interested in doing stuff, and senior people have been doing stuff, it just doesn't feel like it's coalesced or been corralled in a way, but it can be, I think it can be. It's just people, they, kind of, don't' realise maybe how their expertise could be used. And everyone thinks, 'Oh, yes, you need to have an exhibition about nature or sustainability.' Well, you don't actually. Or the exhibition has to be perfectly organised, perfectly sustainable in terms of the wood we use for the build and all this. And actually no, what I was really big on V&A that actually every exhibition regardless of the subject matter should be put on in a sensible way. You've reused as much material as you can, you've asked suppliers to think about scope 3 emissions, you've done all this other stuff, you're really driving it through procurement and working with your suppliers and contractors. And I think often museums again forget that superpower. And your big clients, and you procure loads of goods and services. Like, you know, people are used to being asked for stuff, just ask. When we asked all our transport agents, we asked all our exhibition designers, anyone external, people are like, 'Oh, yes, that's really interested.' And either they had stuff they wanted to work with us on on sustainability or they didn't and they were like, 'Okay, we'll get on this,' or they gave us really great ideas of things that they could recommend and do. So, I think that's something again that people miss a trick of. 

Moderator 1: Yes, definitely. I think that thing that you said earlier about publicity, you know, how much should we be as a museum informing the public, telling them what to do, versus, you know, just sitting quietly and doing it in the background. And I'm very much an advocate for telling them what do, and some people don't know what's good for them. 

Sara Kassam: Me too. I am basically a benign environmental dictator, like, that is how I describe myself. I'm like, 'Everyone should just do what I say because I said it.' Yes, I'm with you. 

Moderator 1: It's a fine balance, isn't it, to get that across. Because especially when it's the next generation, and there's this fear of, you know, because there's sustainability but then there are also all of these other issues that we're trying to tackle in the museum service across all organisations, decolonisation and LGBTQ plus issues. And then everyone goes, 'But there's too much.' And I'm like, 'Well, you don't have to think about it, we don't need to solve everything, we're not going to be able to solve everything and we don't need to solve it all right now, but we should be using the right expertise at the right time in the right areas.' In terms of examples of good projects and things, I know obviously recently the Burrell got, like, a complete generation of their space and stuff. You know, I went to a session about it at the MA with you. 

Sara Kassam: It's where we met, Sara met Sara. 

Moderator 1: I know. 

Moderator 2: Also, I wasn't at that one, I was at the de-colonisation one, but the thing that I heard from that is that you told Simon Brown off for trying to finish early. 

Sara Kassam: That was really good questions, I was like, 'You can't cut me off here.' 

Moderator 2: Simon Brown is a pod listener as well. 

Sara Kassam: That's really funny that that came out. 

Moderator 2: He's going to be like, 'Sara.' 

Moderator 1: I know, I came out of it and I was like, 'She's a badass, I like her.' 

Sara Kassam: It's again that dictatorship stuff coming out. I want to continue, we will continue. 

Moderator 1: I think you'd be a really good dictator actually. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, thanks. Thanks. Benevolent, I'd bring everyone sweets, I'm a great snack person. 

Moderator 1: That's fine. I mean, bribery works everywhere. 

Sara Kassam: Always. 

Moderator 2: Sorry, you were talking about the Burrell. 

Sara Kassam: Oh yes, the Burrell. 

Moderator 2: Have you been to the Burrell? Have you been there? 

Moderator 1: I really want to go. 

Sara Kassam: I'd like to. 

Moderator 1: But, you know, they've had this massive programme and it's cost lots of money and that's wonderful. And I also get the whispering going out the door, it's like, 'Well, it's alright for them because they've got lots of money,' and I'm like, 'Guys, get over yourself,' like we said earlier. But, you know, what examples have you had, obviously you have V&A, but examples of, like, smaller projects or little things that people are doing that other organisations could maybe learn from. 

Moderator 2: In my head this is like, like in a teen movie where you open your lock and you've got loads of love hearts around something (talking over each other 28.39) stuff, like, all the most sustainable places. 

Sara Kassam: It's really funny, yes, I think that's massive. Like, I'm going to bring back sport, we have the same in sport, like, you know, a big sport will be doing stuff, and then all the little sports will be like, 'We don't all the money and resource,' but you can still do stuff, absolutely. And I don't think it's on size, it's a proportionate action, but again, it's comes down to that, what's meaningful? What works for your organisation? So, what works at V&A won't work everywhere, right, it's what works for you. So, that thing of, yes, not preaching to your public. I think people want to know that your organisation is being responsible and cares about the planet. Like with any subject, you don't want to be beaten over the head and be told what to do, right. And museums are great, well they should be great, at, you know, displaying lots of different opinions, letting people come to their own (ph 29.20) conclusions, stimulating lots of thoughts, right, that's what you do, and you can do that around climate. So, people do loads of really, really interesting things, like, speaking to Naomi at the Quaker Tapestry museum, on my to do list, I'm obsessed with small museums. I've been to the pencil museum in the Lakes. 

Moderator 1: Oh my God, don't. I'm literally obsessed with the pencil museum. 

Sara Kassam: Literally went on a geography field trip there. 

Moderator 1: Oh my God. Right, the thing about the pencil museum, also, I literally talk about the pencil museum all the time. 

Sara Kassam: It's amazing. 

Moderator 1: Shout out. We should go there and do a podcast there actually. 

Sara Kassam: You should. There's the biggest pencil in the world. Is it still the biggest pencil in the world? 

Moderator 1: I don't know. I bloody hope so, they deserve. But when you go through the mine, and then you're, like, wow this it's going to be crazy, and you start off going through this thing. And when I first got there I was like, 'I'm scared (TC 00:30:00) I'm scared to go in the mine thing where they're mining for lead.' And then it comes out and it's, like, a village hall and it's really, really cute, and it's so interesting and I learnt so much about pencils. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, it's brilliant. Next on my list is the pen museum in Birmingham. So, we've got trampolining championships coming up, so, work is like, 'We're going to go to trampolining championships,' and I'm like, 'Yes, and also to the pen museum.' So, that's happening in the summer, I'm very excited. 

Moderator 2: When you have things like that with UK sport, like, do you always get a chance to try it out? Are you going to go trampolining? 

Sara Kassam: What to try the sport out? 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Sara Kassam: So, I haven't done, apart from the wheelchair basketball, but, yes, I can be like, 'I need to check the sustainability of this event, can I please have a go?' 

Moderator 1: Yes, the sustainability of this elastic. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, totally. 

Moderator 1: I've no idea what trampolines are made of. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, have fun. I don't know. As I said, I'm very uncoordinated, so I don't know how wise it would be, but I'm definitely going to ask, I definitely will ask. Because we've got the the canoe slalom world championships at Lee Valley and I'm quite sacred of that, but I think it will be very exciting. 

Moderator 1: It is very cool. 

Moderator 2: 100% 

Sara Kassam: On the water, yes, so I'm going to do that. I was going to talk about the jam museum as well, but that's for another time. 

Moderator 2: Wait, where's the jam museum? 

Sara Kassam: The jam museum in Essex, Tiptree jam museum. I love a small museum. 

Moderator 2: Wait, is it about jam? 

Sara Kassam: It's about jam. It's fabulous. Go. It's in Essex. And then I want to go to the butter museum as a companion, but that's in Cork, so that's a bit more of a mission. And I've got a friend in Ireland but she lives in Dublin and she refused to take me, and I was like, 'Next time we're going to the butter museum.' And then I can recommend the fan museum in Greenwich. 

Moderator 1: I've heard of the fan museum, yes. 

Sara Kassam: Also beautiful. Love an obscure small museum. But anyway, sorry, tapestry museum, not obscure, fabulous. They did some great stuff around resilience through their tapestries. And, you know, kind of, really engaging the community on that stuff. So, they try and do stuff to their building but then really looked into their collections and then saw how they can engage visitors. And in an interesting way, like, it doesn't all have to be about carbon or about plants. It's huge. There's loads of different things that you can talk about and investigate. Like, the Horniman museum do some fabulous things as well. They've got a great, I think it's some kind of environmental club because they have a lot of families visit where they really engage families in (talking over each other 31.57). 

Moderator 1: Their gardens are beautiful are they. 

Sara Kassam: I was obsessed by alpacas, llamas, I can't remember. Yes, I'm a big fan, big fan of the Horniman museum. I went there, so, one of the first museum memories when I as a kid, went on a school trip, so, I grew up in south-east London, and I remember using my pocket money to buy an 80p notebook, and it was like a thin one, and it was floral and it had the Horniman logo in magenta foil. I remember this so vividly, like, you were saying about your formative pen experience. 

Moderator 1: That pen would have done really well in that notebook. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, I know. This Horniman museum experience for me, and now we take the kids and I'm like, 'You guys are not appreciating this.' Because they go to museums all the bloody time. When I was a kid I did not, it's not something that I did. And they just don't know they're born. Anyway. Yes. So, smaller museums, like, everyone is doing amazing things, I can't even list them. Like Dundee Museum of Transport are doing some brilliant stuff around engaging people, you know, it's transport, it's emissions, you've got the mining museums in Scotland, it's coal, they're still finding ways to engage people on sustainability and different aspects of. And then loads of people do really interesting projects, like, you know, Manchester museum are doing great stuff on sourcing in their shops, like, as well as their exhibitions. So, there are gazillions of examples that I couldn't bear to list here because I'll miss other people out and I've name checked some and not others. But I would recommend going to the museums association resources online. So, they've got a great museums of Climate Justice campaign which we launched last year. But we tried to curate lots of resources of things that are going on and really nice examples and case studies of interesting things that people are doing of all sizes and all types. 

Moderator 1: What do you think the sector is going to look like in ten years? 

Sara Kassam: What will it look like in ten years? There's what it will look like, what I will like it to look like. Interesting. 

Moderator 1: Yes, what would you like it to look like? 

Sara Kassam: What do I want it to be? I would like it to be a kind sector, a sector that truly considers people and planet. So, really thinks about planetary boundaries that you can't just do more, more, more, more, do less, do it better. And really for environmental sustainability not to be an over and above special thing, just it's part of your business, it's part of your organisation. It's what you do. You weave it into your public programme in whatever way suits you. You do it in the operation of your buildings, you do it in the provision of your services. It's a standard. It's not like, there's a few museums where we're asking for examples of this and that, it's actually everyone is a level where they all know their carbon emissions, they are all taking action, all their staff are carbon literate, they've all had training on sustainability as part of their inductions and it just becomes a normal thing, it's not an over and above. 

Moderator 1: Do you think that's likely to happen? 

Sara Kassam: Yes, totes, why not. 

Moderator 1: Your face. 

Moderator 2: If you have anything to do with it (talking over each other 34.38). 

Sara Kassam: I mean, totally, we have to. 

Moderator 1: Yes, we have to, we have no choice. 

Sara Kassam: Thinking about climate resilience, again, going back to V&A, the effect of extreme weather, there's galleries that would overhear, there were spaces that would flood, everyone would be like flapping (inaudible 34.52) objects in that place. There's been massive amounts of rain. There are all kinds of things. You've got Ham House, they've had to close their home because people can't visit because it's too hot, it's unsafe. And museum that are in urban centres, people aren't going to be able to get to your venue because it's too hot to travel there. So, there are all these reasons why it's becoming just so real. And it's not it happened, it's now. Like, York museum's trust did an amazing thing on flooding, you know, York gets flooded every year now, and they did some great stuff with the community and, kind of, responding to the feelings of that, of what it's like to lose everything. And then I think, don't quote me on this, but there was also some interesting natural flood defence type project that tied into. But you have to look into that, it's really, really interesting. 

Moderator 2: We're doing that at Leeds Industrial Museum at the moment, because it's on the canal in Leeds, so I think we're working with, is it the Leeds Alleviation Flood Scheme maybe to help prevent that from happening, because we've got an amazing collection of locomotives and the shed that they're in is just constantly gets flooded. And I think it's the 2016, 2015 flood really affected that collection. So, there's a lot of work going on there at the minute, brilliant work. 

Sara Kassam: So, that's interesting. So, it's again, it's that partnership working, it's looking at natural solutions. And, yes, that's 2015, 2016, it's not like this is current stuff. People have known this stuff is going on and had to deal with it. So, this is why this isn't a new thing. People have been dealing with the effects of climate change for some time, it's just that they're going to get worse, so our responses need to be a bit sharper, and it needs to be built in every organisations business continuity plan and your risk register and all of that boring corporate stuff. But it needs to be in there because then you need to allocate resources to managing it and dealing with it. 

Moderator 1: Also, whenever anyone say ham house I find it really funny because I just think about a house full of ham. 

Sara Kassam: Yes, absolutely. Same thing. Absolutely same thing. Yes. 

Moderator 2: And, like, all the cabinets and cases are full of different types, like, Billy Bear ham and different hams. 

Sara Kassam: Yes. 

Moderator 1: Okay. So, on that really important note, we've reached the end of the podcast where we ask our guests the same three questions. So, the first question we have is, what was your-, there's a man outside by the way so I'm going to hurry up. What has been your favourite day at work? 

Sara Kassam: I think I already said my favourite day at my current work which was the wheelchair basketball situation and I loved it, but I did also, I'm going to put another one in-, no, I went to Wimbledon and it was awesome, but I'm not really that into tennis, and I got to watch anything everyone is like, 'Ah.' But we had this breakfast, sustainability breakfast with these tennis players in this house, and then as you open the door it backs onto the courts, the garden backs onto the tennis courts. But I also met this lovely woman called Eleanor at the museum in Wimbledon which is absolutely fabulous, I can definitely recommend the museum there. And there was a great exhibition on social change and justice, and it was brilliant. So, it was like a museum and sporting experience all in one, and I had only been in the job for a few months, so it was really special. 

Moderator 2: Just quickly, did you meet any of the famous tennis players? 

Sara Kassam: I want to say Laura Robson was in the room, but as I said, I don't really follow tennis, sport agnostic, so, you know, I was more into the sustainability part of that discussion, debate, people sitting on the sofa. 

Moderator 2: Good favourite day. 

Sara Kassam: Yes. That's good. 

Moderator 2: Do you want to the last two? 

Moderator 1: Yes, the last two is, from everything that we've talked about today, what would be a ten second snippet for our listeners to take away? And what is your actual favourite takeaway? 

Sara Kassam: I love this question. Okay. Snippet. Do something, do something now, and think about systems. So, think about climate justice, this isn't just a scientific issue, this is a social issue, it ties in with all the other things we're working on in terms of decolonisation and society. And you tell stories, tell them well. 

Moderator 1: Poetic. I think that might even have been exactly ten seconds. 

Sara Kassam: Good. I went over. My actual favourite takeaway, there is an amazing place in Wanstead, my local, called Sakura sushi and buns. 

Moderator 1: Sakura sushi and buns. 

Sara Kassam: Sushi and buns, you know those lovely soft fluffy buns (talking over each other 38.55). 

Moderator 1: Bao buns. 

Sara Kassam: Full of beautiful delicious things, the ones that fold over. And if I ever order something else, I also have to order the same thing from that place because if order a different thing from the menu I'm disappointed, it has to go back to that original set we discovered years ago. But absolutely delicious. Recommend them. 

Moderator 2: We'll go. 

Moderator 1: Yes, absolutely. We're being waved off now. So, thank you Sara for being such an amazing guest. 

Sara Kassam: The stress, the stress. 

Moderator 1: We've made such a mess on the table, I'm really pleased with this. Hi Meg, we're back. 

Moderator 2: Hello. 

Moderator 1: How did you find that? 

Moderator 2: Fun. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Fun, fun, fun. Really fun. 

Moderator 1: Yes, and absolutely wild, like, experience. 

Moderator 2: Do you reckon we're allowed to talk about the experience? 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Go on, tell them. 

Moderator 1: We had to go and record in a HM government building, and we had to take ID with us and get signed in and get little lanyards. 

Moderator 2: We got allocated a table to wait at. 

Moderator 1: Yes, we did. 

Moderator 2: (talking over each other 39.50) and they were like, 'Wait at number one.' 

Moderator 1: Yes. And then got slightly told off by security because we were trying go through incorrectly. 

Moderator 2: oh yes. 

Moderator 1: How embarrassing. 

Moderator 2: I just kept walking through and the man literally was like, 'What are you doing?' (TC 00:40:00) 

Moderator 1: I mean, he took his job seriously, I can't knock him. 

Moderator 2: Yes, government building. 

Moderator 1: Security. So, it was lots of fun, but actually talking to Sara was lots of fun. 

Moderator 2: Yes, what was your favourite bit? 

Moderator 1: Honestly, she's a fast talker, she gets so much in, it's incredible. 

Moderator 2: Oh my god, the whole time I was sat there thinking, 'I am literally in between two people that are just revving each other up. 

Moderator 1: Yes, yes. 

Moderator 2: Like you both talk so quickly. 

Moderator 1: We just get more and more and more-, yes. It was, kind of, a lot. What was really nice is she's really pragmatic about the whole thing and she's been doing this for a long time and she's really passionate about it, but she very much, you know, realises the reality of working in cultural organisations, but actually that we're not doing that badly as well. It was, kind of, refreshing to hear. Because I think we're so hard on ourselves all the time. But there is work going on. We don't shout about it very much. How about you? 

Moderator 2: I had a really good time talking to her, so, my favourite thing was actually just meeting her. I feel like we really vibed. I feel like I'd to-, 

Moderator 1: She's very cool. 

Moderator 2: Yes, so cool. And I feel like I would really like to just go out and bang back a couple of wines with her, do you know what I mean? 

Moderator 1: Yes, yes, yes. 

Moderator 2: And also, I don't know if you guys heard this, I think we probably talked about this on the episode, that were getting hurried out of the room. 

Moderator 1: Yes, but then Sara was really good at promoting us to these random people. 

Moderator 2: She was, like, trying to calm them down outside as we were racing to pick up our equipment. And then we go the boat. That's at story for another time. 

Moderator 1: It's a story for another time. 

Moderator 2: Yes. Thank you for listening. If you like the episode, subscribe, write us a review, you'll get a badge, and tell your friends. 

Moderator 1: Yes, please. 

Moderator 2: Enjoy. We need to do some thanks. Do you want to do them today? 

Moderator 1: I will do them today. So, thank you to Hal Finney for doing our cover artwork, and thanks to Tim Bentley for doing our theme tune music. We love it. 

Moderator 2: We do love it. And we love you for listening. So thank you very much. And we'll see you next episode. I'm sweating a lot. 

Moderator 1: It's warm in here isn't it? It's never warm in this room. 

Moderator 2: Anyway, a really sweaty goodbye to you all. 

Moderator 1: Bye.