Museums n'That
Museums n'That
The Tower of London is a twice in a lifetime experience
What do you get when you mix a hotel breakfast with the Chief Exhibitor at the Tower of London? A really good podcast episode.
Not only are we at the Tower! of! London! (Meg's favourite place in the world) this episode, but we have the absolute pleasure of talking to Chief Exhibitor Nivek Amichund. And opening his post.
Nivek talked us through how he got to be in this whopper of a role, life living at the Tower and ghost stories and quirks from around the site. We had the absolute best time. Thanks Nivek - see you at the next breakfast buffet.
If you liked the episode, listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.
Moderator 2: That was actually really good, I wasn't recording, hang on let me see if I can try it again. That was me whistling.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: That was great.
Moderator 1: I have a story about whistling to tell you.
Moderator 2: Go on, actually, hang on, wait. Welcome to the Museums 'nThat Podcast, where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums and Galleries and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. Go on, whistling.
Moderator 1: Right, so. I have a dog and I think, hands down, the best way to call your dog by whistling is being able to whistle yourself. As opposed to buying a whistle because at some point they all sound the same.
Moderator 2: Can you do a whistle now?
Moderator 1: So I'm trying to learn how to whistle but with my thumb and finger.
Moderator 2: No, you aren't.
Moderator 1: Yes, I am.
Moderator 2: That's only what they do in movies.
Moderator 1: No, I'm trying to do it, I'm like, I could try. I can't, I can't, there's just so much going on. No, I can't do that, I absolutely can't do it and my hands taste like oranges. So I'm trying to learn to whistle but that isn't my best thing from the week, however. Best thing, getting a boat.
Moderator 2: Yes, getting a boat. I thought you were going to say staying with my mum, she listens to this. So you might want to-,
Moderator 1: Actually, Lynne is an incredible host.
Moderator 2: Right, we had, like, a little sleepover, didn't we? At my house, like we were fourteen.
Moderator 1: Watched that SAS programme.
Moderator 2: Watched, 'SAS: Who Dares Wins' My mum made us some sausages and then we went to bed and in the morning we woke up and Lynne drove us to the train station like she was driving us to school.
Moderator 1: It was very cute.
Moderator 2: Yes, it was really funny.
Moderator 1: For obvious reasons, I haven't stayed at a friend's mum's house for a number of decades.
Moderator 2: Yes, I know she liked you as well because she put the heating on. I thought that was good.
Moderator 1: Replacement daughter, what can I say?
Moderator 2: Replacement daughter, yes. That's really the thing-, that's the best thing from my week.
Moderator 1: Me staying at your mum's house?
Moderator 2: Having a sleepover and I stayed a little bit longer with Lynne as well, sorry, you wanted to talk about the boat.
Moderator 1: The boat was really good, we got a boat from Canary Wharf to the Tower of London, spoiler alert. And it was incredible, like, so efficient.
Moderator 2: The Thames bloody clipper.
Moderator 1: Outside. So who are we speaking to today?
Moderator 2: Today I am absolutely in bits-,
Moderator 1: Beside yourself.
Moderator 2: Absolute tears in my eyes to tell you that we are talking to Nivek Amichund, who is the Chief Exhibitor at the Tower of London. Which is actually my absolute best, best place, in the whole entire world, ever.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: I'm obsessed.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Do we want to really quickly just explain how we know Nivek? Because I don't think we get into it in the interview.
Moderator 1: Yes, okay.
Moderator 2: So, just to set the scene. Sara and I went to the Museums Association Conference.
Moderator 1: I thought you were going to be a bit more storytelling than that.
Moderator 2: Oh, sorry.
Moderator 1: Like, on one frosty, November morning-,
Moderator 2: People haven't got bloody time this is a long episode. Basically, we went down to breakfast in the hotel, sat down next to this lovely man, and I was like, 'Hello, I'm Meg, who are you?' He was like, 'I'm Nivek, and I work at the Tower of London.' And I was like, 'Wow, oh my God, amazing.' The first picture in my camera roll is of the inside of the Beauchamp Tower because it's just amazing. We do talk about it on the episode. And he was like, 'Yes, I live at the Tower of London.' And, literally, we talk about it he lives there, that's his place of residence.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: And he was really fun, such a great guy and so, we were like, 'Get him on.'
Moderator 1: And his job is really interesting as well, actually.
Moderator 2: It's really interesting. I think this is, like, a slightly different episode, like, it's quite-,
Moderator 1: It was tricky.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: It's a complex place.
Moderator 2: And I felt like we spent a lot of it being-, he's got a fascinating life, we were listening to him talking about his life, it felt quite reverent.
Moderator 1: Definitely.
Moderator 2: Which is a good word.
Moderator 1: Isn't it?
Moderator 2: And a good episode.
Moderator 1: Yes. Really good.
Moderator 2: Really good. So please enjoy, sit back, relax, have a great time.
Moderator 1: We did.
Moderator 2: We really did and enjoy Nivek's episode of Museums 'nThat.
I feel very stressed whenever I do this because I don't want you to be thinking that I'm texting.
Nivek: It looks like you're texting.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Yes. Just texting in front of you, rude.
Moderator 2: I'm just texting my mates, like, 'You'll never guess where I am.' Okay, Nivek, the first question that we ask all of our guests is, 'Who the flip are you?'
Nivek: Who the flip am I?
Moderator 2: Who the flip are you?
Nivek: I'm flipping me. So, we're in the Tower of London and we're in the Waterloo Block. I am the chief exhibitor, at His Majesty's Palace and Fortress, the Tower of London. And I am British. I am South African. I am many things. I moved here when I was eighteen so you might wonder how on earth did I get here?
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Plane.
Moderator 1: Good choice. Yes.
Nivek: Yes, I didn't fancy going the other routes. Ironically, my family were brought to South Africa about eight generations pre, about 1836, by the British, to work in the sugarcane fields. So my family were indentured servants, that's how eight generations of my family are in South Africa. So I moved here when I was eighteen. My mum moved here when I was about twelve. So I stayed in South Africa while she moved here to become a teacher. So I just grew up in a low social mobility area, I fell into all of the vices that come with that. And I needed to remove myself from that situation. I came here, got a job at front of house, at Tate Britain. That's why I'm still passionate about front of house, I know what it's like when you put on the uniform and you become invisible, nobody listens to you, they treat you like one homogeneous group, with no voice or no rights.
Moderator 1: But also you must know everything about everything. You know. You have to be that person that's completely invisible but you must know all, if someone comes and speaks to you, and I think that's the-, it's ridiculous.
Nivek: Yes, you've got to be ready for when somebody wants different layers of information, delivering that. And people often don't see it as a skill-set, which I find ignorant sometimes, within the sector. Anyway, worked front of house at Tate for sometime, about four or five years. Worked for an agency, so, as agencies do, generally, quite exploitative, so I could work sometimes, seven, fourteen, 21 days in a row to get some money.
Moderator 2: Is that still doing front of house stuff?
Nivek: Yes. So I'd work at the Royal Academy, V&A, Hayward Gallery, British Museum, doing night-shifts, or event shifts. And so, I got a good understanding of how operations work. And then started early with Tate Forum, just when it formed, which is now called Tate Collective, so it was a youth engagement programme, it's pretty cool, young people and their influence in institutions has always been interesting to me. And usually, their lack of voice has become a voice now that's established within Tate, but that took a lot of work, down to a lot of people being consistent and really believing in that vision. There were times when even as young people in that space we felt exploited. I knew what we were getting when I went into it. I was going to get skills about interviews, how to video things, how to market things. I needed those skills, I couldn't afford to go on unpaid internships. So I had to find a way of getting that skill-set, whilst still paying the bills. And eventually, I had to leave Tate Forum because I was, one, getting old enough not to be considered a young person.
Moderator 1: Hurts, doesn't it?
Nivek: Two, I needed to pay the bills, so I just couldn't do it for free anymore because all the money I'd save would get spent on visa applications to stay. So, that was just a grind, so it was just a hustle for, I would say the first ten, twelve years of me being here. It was just, like, literally, two years by two years, I couldn't plant roots, I didn't know where I was going to be here so it was quite-, as a young person, quite destabilising. So I'm quite resentful of people who go to university and have, that's what I consider stability. But I'm not saying that's easy, I just never had that. But in a way, that's, kind of, made me resilient in other ways and it's probably led to how I ended up getting a wide range of skill-sets that had prepared me for this type of job, which is very varied. So I went to the National Portrait Gallery after the Tate, I worked there as front of house again. Got an assistant manager job, worked my way up to manager. And then sales and ticketing, security operations, and for two years I was a business coach for the National Portrait Gallery, working with young people who were hard to reach, I'm doing that in inverted commas because they're not hard to reach.
Moderator 1: No.
Nivek: Nobody's trying to reach.
Moderator 1: You're just not speaking their language. That's it.
Nivek: Yes, so, they are not hard to reach and it was really interesting because as a business coach we worked with large corporate, so BNP Paribas, BBC, working with these young people who were excluded from mainstream education and they were put in a separate classroom, and they weren't given a curriculum. But when we worked with them they were on the verge of being excluded. At the end of it, 99% of them got a grade A to C in their GCSEs, and they've never got it before.
Moderator 2: Wow.
Nivek: That was quite powerful. And then I applied to be the deputy chief exhibitor here, four, five interviews later.
Moderator 2: Really?
Nivek: Yes, it was intense. Got the job and they said my now predecessor will be retiring soon, so I've got, like, a year or just over a year to take over all of the knowledge, to pass on to either somebody who's going to get the job or have the opportunity to apply for it. And I applied for it, and I got it.
Moderator 2: What does it mean, like, a chief exhibitor? Is it quite a unique job title?
Nivek: It is, it's a historic title. The exhibitor part goes back to the 1800s, essentially the exhibitor was a servant to the keeper and the keeper is the keeper of the Jewel House, and that's an ancient title, again, goes back to the thirteenth century I think. Day to day practically here, I manage the front of house teams that work inside the buildings, the wardens, everything that comes within operations, security, front of house, (mw 09.16) service, boring stuff like dry-cleaning uniform supply, all of the stuff. But we've got a good team which really helps.
Moderator 2: When we were reading up on you we read that you are the first person of colour to work at the Tower of London. Is that right?
Nivek: No, that's not right. I'm the first person of colour to live here as a-,
Moderator 2: Oh, to live here.
Nivek: So a resident inside the tower as a head of my department, so, not as a soldier, not as a worker or slave really. There were definitely people of colour here before me, they just weren't acknowledged in the structures of the history of the place. You can see the board behind me, it's pretty-,
Moderator 2: It's literally, scrolled into this wooden board, it's incredible. (TC 00:10:00)
Moderator 1: Yes, Jewel House. There he is, 'Chief Exhibitor'.
Nivek: Yes, so, that's the bit, it's not-, and it's an important point. I'm not unique, and I'm not reticent, I appreciate the acknowledgement and recognition because I believe it's on merit. But I'm reluctant to accept any celebration that comes with that because there should be the question, why there aren't more people like me in spaces like this, that occupy spaces in institutions like ours. That's not unique to this space or place, it's a sector-wide thing and probably a country-wide thing. I'm pretty much mediocre in a lot of things, so I just got lucky to, kind of, be positioned in the right place. And sometimes life's about luck, it's also about being prepared to take the chance when it comes up.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: It's not unique to me, it's the universal thing about access to spaces that we see aren't ours and spaces that hold structure of power.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. I'm here, hi, I like the job and I am very grateful for the opportunities that it's provided me. I've learnt a lot in here.
Moderator 1: As you're saying that there's a man shouting outside, what's he shouting, who is that?
Nivek: So that's the soldier, probably, what's the time? One o'clock, it's not even three o'clock yet.
Moderator 1: It's not even three o'clock, pipe down.
Nivek: Yes, three o'clock is ceremony of the words-,
Moderator 1: That's why they shout.
Nivek: That's when they shout, so, somebody's probably getting too close to the guard.
Moderator 1: Really?
Nivek: So the guards are actual soldiers downstairs, so, yes. We're quite proud of the tradition and I've got a sincere respect for that heritage because it's undeniable, it's good. It's good to be proud of something, it's good to have things that are steadfast in a time of change, consistent change. I mean, like, we didn't really need to do this podcast, you've got ChatGPT to do this for us, right?
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: There is something about a human connection. I think being physically in a space, that draws emotion and part of our cause here is to stir every spirit in order to inspire or provoke some sort of change. That can be good and that can be uncomfortable sometimes because of the history of the space. Not everything that happened here was good for everyone and it's what the architecture symbolises to people. It was designed, the White Tower was, to impose its might on the unruly Londoners at the time, and again, physically, it still represents a lot of things for a lot of people in different ways. It's a balance, it's about respecting the tradition, being true to ourselves and not shying away from different conversations. And being open and transparent with that process and we're quite forward-thinking in that space.
When I joined this organisation it was because we were pioneering things through heritage, and most recently a good example of that is Permissible Beauty, something that's going on at Hampton Court Palace. It's a really exciting project, something I would-, it, kind of, chimes with what I'm saying, it's really amplifying under-represented voices in a historic context. So that's pretty cool.
Moderator 2: We were saying earlier when you were talking about your background, you were saying living here there are lots of other people that live here, around 100 other people, maybe, and those people have military backgrounds, generally. So it feels like it's a very safe space to be but that's the first time in your life, you said, you felt that way.
Nivek: Yes, about 100 people live on site, about 30 families, everybody else is ex-military, there are some senior managers as well, pretty much everybody who lives on site is ex-military. So I'm the only person who doesn't have that background living here.
Moderator 2: What's it like living where you work and living specifically here? Are you ever just like, 'God, I just need to get out.'?
Nivek: Yes, it can be intense, but it's about acknowledging that and what do I do with that. It's an incredible privilege not to have to worry about travelling, travel time, being able to go home for lunch, like we talked about earlier. So those are all privileges, right? And what do I do with that, I try and go for a run actually, in the morning, so physically getting out of the space, for a quick run, I say run, it's like a hobble. Just to get some fresh air.
Moderator 1: Yes, I walked up the ramp from, you know, the ferry earlier, with a suitcase and I had to stop and take a breath, so.
Moderator 2: Sara and I got the ferry earlier, just for our listeners, we got the Thames Clipper, didn't we?
Moderator 1: Did not stop smiling the whole way.
Moderator 2: Yes, we took so many pictures. Took a little video, we were absolutely loving it.
Moderator 1: It was brilliant, yes, but that's not what we're talking about.
Moderator 2: We should do a podcast on the Thames Clipper though. Does it ever feel weird though bringing stuff in or watching Gogglebox, or watching TV in such a historic space? Are you just like, 'This is weird.'
Nivek: Yes, it is a little bit because something about Spiderman, the new Spiderman, I say the new Spiderman, like-,
Moderator 1: Is it the one with all the Spidermans in it? Spidermen?
Nivek: Yes, that one. Okay, so.
Moderator 1: I don't know what it's called either.
Nivek: The Tower's in it, I was like, 'Oh, okay.' And it's like it's in my-,
Moderator 1: I didn't authorise that-,
Nivek: I mean, it's not up to me to authorise it, but, yes, you know, it's cool. You forget and you become desensitised to being in here and it's like, 'Oh this is a special place, it's cool.' And how I remind myself is by inviting people to come. I don't often do that straight off the bat because ultimately you want to get to know people. And often it dominates conversation so, yes, you don't want that to be the thing that you're known for.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: So you want to get people to know you and if you feel comfortable you say, 'Oh, do you want to come here?' It's tricky because you don't want to be-, because it's quite a dominating thing.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Do you know what I mean?
Moderator 1: Yes, absolutely.
Moderator 2: You can get sick of talking about it all the time.
Nivek: Yes, like this. I'm joking.
Moderator 2: Can you never get Deliveroo?
Nivek: You can-,
Moderator 2: You just have to leave and go and get it?
Nivek: Yes, you've got to pick it up from the gate, it's hard work. I mean, I'm not going to complain about that. Yes. The fact that I can afford to get Deliveroo, it's privilege, like. Not everybody can get it, Megan.
Moderator 1: Yes, they don't deliver where I live.
Moderator 2: Do they not?
Moderator 1: No.
Moderator 2: Oh, speaking of the Tower, so you live in the Beauchamp Tower, it's literally my favourite place, can you tell us about it?
Nivek: Can I ask you a question?
Moderator 2: Hit me.
Nivek: What is it that-, I won't hit you. What is that you like about the Tower and particularly the Beauchamp Tower?
Moderator 2: Okay, so, I love that any sort of historical graffiti, so when you have witches' marks on walls or things being discovered behind panelling, or anything like that really excites me. But then I like the fact that some of the names there, or the fact that they are people's names that are written that definitely have been written by them, you can then trace those records back and find out about them as historical figures. So, I really like the kind of history where it's, like, tangible, to me, and I just find that so amazing. And then knowing that for some of those people that was their last moments, and you can almost touch it. I just think that's so incredible. I could spend hours there, and you literally do.
Nivek: Literally, yes, thank you.
Moderator 2: Do you like it?
Nivek: I do. I've been there six years so the Beauchamp, I suppose, represents to me that physical security and stability I just never had, I said this to you before. The irony is I think in my entire life and that's sad, really, I've just never been in a physically safe space.
Moderator 1: You really maxed out on that security thing there, didn't you? You know, you're now-, can you get any more secure?
Nivek: I know, yes, so okay, I'm grateful for it.
Moderator 1: You're in a fortress.
Nivek: I am extremely grateful for it is what I mean. The Beauchamp Tower, or Beecham Tower-,
Moderator 1: Beecham like, Beecham's cough syrup?
Nivek: Okay, again, I'm falling into the trap of anglicising the word, it's a French word, right?
Moderator 1: It's interesting.
Nivek: Beauchamp is the right pronunciation I think.
Moderator 2: I've been stressing out for three months because when I said it to you when we were sat down at breakfast I thought, 'Oh my God, I literally have said it wrong to the guy that literally lives there.'
Nivek: I'm not the expert in it, I'm just somebody who lives there. It was built in 1280, it was one of the defensive towers, built around the White Tower, so it's got arrow slits so, you know, there's only one way in and one way out and that's that stone spiral staircase. So that's the only way I can get into my place, or out because you have to share that staircase with the public, and that's why it was used as a prison as well, for a long time. And it's got graffiti in there from prisoners that were kept there for quite some time. It's a really interesting space, actually because a lot of suffering must have happened there.
Moderator 1: Yes, I would say, morbid fascination.
Moderator 2: Yes, it's a weird thing to be like, 'That's my favourite place.' Because, like, obviously-,
Moderator 1: It is and that's exactly why I never asked you.
Moderator 2: We've talked about this a lot on a podcast, it's a weird thing to say favourite, but actually, the right thing is fascination or historical interest, I guess, I don't know. Or, like, it really resonates with me more so.
Nivek: That sounds like jargon.
Moderator 2: Do you think?
Nivek: Yes, I mean, if that's how you feel about it, if it's your favourite place, it doesn't matter what I think I term what favourite should mean to you. You could still have an affinity to something in your context because everybody's different, so, because we label things a lot but the only reason we label things is so it's easier for me to process in relation to somebody else.
Moderator 2: On our way up here you were telling us the story of the two princes, and there's obviously lots of storytelling that goes on here.
Nivek: Yes.
Moderator 2: What is a story that, kind of, stands out for you that you enjoy telling the most?
Nivek: The most. Probably the story of the Crown Jewels, you know, the historic narrative that they are, what they represent, the symbolism because I find that really interesting, it's like once I understood it I was like, 'Oh, okay, this is actually-, there's layers to this, what do these things represent?' Why are they called a working collection, the implements (TC 00:20:00) that are used and they all mean something. So, they're not just pieces of jewellery or plate or silver or crowns. What are crowns, crowns were essentially hats.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: You know, if you go back to different societies and tribes and chiefs-,
Moderator 2: We should bring that back, like-,
Nivek: Hats?
Moderator 2: Fancy up the hats, just more crowns.
Moderator 1: Do you wear hats?
Nivek: I like hats, yes, in fact there's one in there.
Moderator 1: Can I see it?
Nivek: Yes, but you have to open it.
Moderator 1: Okay, I'm going to open it, hang on.
Moderator 2: I feel like sometimes with hats, like, if I'm wearing one I think that everyone is looking at me thinking, 'Why are you wearing a hat.'
Moderator 1: Can I (mw 20.31)?
Nivek: Yes.
Moderator 2: Is this something you've bought for yourself?
Nivek: Yes.
Moderator 1: Oh.
Moderator 2: Is it?
Nivek: Yes, it's not like a historic hat, sorry to disappoint you.
Moderator 1: I thought it was a (talking over each other 20.39).
Moderator 2: You're just opening Nivek's post now.
Moderator 1: I feel like, what kind of hat do we think Nivek wears?
Moderator 2: I think this might be a hat, Winter hat.
Nivek: Not far off actually.
Moderator 2: Okay, is it a beanie?
Nivek: I'm not going to spoil the surprise.
Moderator 2: Don't spoil it, okay, unboxing on a podcast.
Moderator 1: It's a cap.
Moderator 2: Is it? That's actually a nice cap Nivek.
Nivek: Thank you.
Moderator 1: Oh yes, that's very cool.
Moderator 2: Oh, is it waterproof?
Nivek: Yes, it's Gore-tex, that's, kind of, why I got it.
Moderator 2: It's got a little, like, toggle at the back, yes.
Moderator 1: Yes, it's very practical.
Nivek: Yes, that's, kind of, what I thought. I thought, 'Okay, when it really, really rains.'
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Want to be proactive.
Moderator 2: That's very smart.
Moderator 1: Really good. God, if you ever need someone to just, sort of, open your post for you, I'm just-,
Nivek: We were talking about something, right?
Moderator 2: Yes, we were taking about your favourite story to tell.
Moderator 1: Oh, you were talking about the crown jewels?
Nivek: Yes, it's a dynamic story, it's about this drama, it's got everything. It's got, like, a start, beginning and end. Well, not end, it's actually got three dots because it's still being used.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: So, it's, like, it's not a book end, you asked me why this was in my office?
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: That was just because Charles I, you know, when he was executed by Oliver Cromwell and they created the Commonwealth, they destroyed the jewels because they believed-, and that's what the jewels represented, royal authority and power and that's why they destroyed it. So, it was, like, 'Oh okay,' they brought it here to the Tower where they were smelted off in the Tower's mint. Some of the historic stones were sold off at auction. There's a lot of drama in that story, people like it, but people often don't know some of the detail. That's, kind of, what we do, all the team are really good at telling some of those stories and bringing that to life.
Moderator 2: On stories then, you know, when there is a place that's so old and it's got-, and especially the crown jewels because I was interested that you said that was your favourite story because it's quite highly emotive and it's obviously very political. You know, but understanding the detail and the context behind something can change your perception. I think that's really important, specifically for somewhere like this. Where people will come in, possibly with a fixed view. Some people will come in just because they think it's great, but some people will be very for or very against or royalist or historical, whatever it is. How do you go about, you know, keeping up conserving and bringing things in line and making it relative for people? That must be a real challenge, that's a big question, sorry.
Nivek: I think it leads towards relevance, right? What's relevant for visitors and then that's, kind of, the key here.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Irrespective of my personal opinion or political leaning, there are things that are historical fact but that can also be challenged because history isn't fixed. So, these are all things that have a fragility with them, they're also hallmarks of power. It's not really for me to, kind of, decide, it's what people feel when you come in and they feel welcome when they come in. Whether we can engage with them on a human level and as you say, it's not trying to change anybody's mind, it's about making people feel welcome in the space. Actually telling a story that's true and welcoming for everybody too. We want to build a relationship with people because like they say, the Tower of London is like a twice in a lifetime experience. You come as a child and then you come back as a parent or grandparent, and that's quite powerful. You know, a lot of people come back to some of the sentry boxes that are empty where we just came in, over the middle drawbridge and they've got a picture of them somewhere in the Tower as a child and they try to recreate that.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: That's quite nice, so it's, like, I suppose what you get with longevity and historic spaces is that sense of continuity. Everything else is shifting, you can still know, like, maybe in twenty years time you come back or after this, maybe we'll take a picture in that sentry box and then come back in five years time.
Moderator 1: Yes, yes please, I'll be there, in the back he'll be like, 'Oh no.'
Moderator 2: Yes, he'll be like, 'Oh, you again.'
Nivek: Yes, you've just got to pay the price. We will welcome you back, we've also got memberships available.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Thank you so much Nivek.
Nivek: They're a good value.
Moderator 1: Going from human connect, but a human connections to animal connections.
Nivek: Okay, yes?
Moderator 1: Who's your favourite raven?
Nivek: My favourite raven?
Moderator 1: Is it That's So Raven? What are they called, I don't know what they're called actually.
Nivek: I don't think we've got one called That's So Raven.
Moderator 1: You should put that in.
Nivek: Okay, you can write the raven master, should you like it.
Moderator 2: Do you follow him on Twitter?
Nivek: I was going to say-,
Moderator 2: He's incredible.
Nivek: I see he's on Twitter quite a lot.
Moderator 1: Is he?
Nivek: Yes.
Moderator 1: Oh, I don't think I do.
Nivek: Yes, Chris is pretty good, he's active on Twitter right, yes.
Moderator 2: Yes, it's really fun.
Nivek: How do you not know this (inaudible 24.55).
Moderator 2: Wow, you're terrible.
Moderator 1: I should know this, okay. We've actually been recording for 56 minutes, so the next few we're going to do, like, fairly quick fire.
Nivek: Quick shot, yes, right, cool.
Moderator 1: Yes, if that's okay?
Nivek: Yes, next question?
Moderator 1: Okay, so you said if we could talk ghost stories, is that right?
Nivek: Yes, but I don't have any, so.
Moderator 1: You don't have any ghost stories?
Nivek: No, I like-, well, I can't make one up.
Moderator 1: Wait, there are no ghost stories at the Tower of London?
Nivek: There are but I don't know them. They're ghosts, the ghosts don't come and tell me their stories.
Moderator 2: No.
Nivek: So, like-,
Moderator 1: Okay, then instead-,
Nivek: You were hoping for, like, tantalising ghost stories?
Moderator 1: Yes, like, hearing some tapping at the door or something?
Nivek: I've never heard anything but my partner Kirsty has, so apparently the Beauchamp Tower is the most haunted one or the most haunted places at the Tower. I've not experienced it but she was dying to tell the story to you guys. It was, kind of, late at night, she woke up, saw some boots, like, officer boots with the bottom of what looks like an officers sword. She's like, oh, she's probably dreaming. So, she closes her eyes again, tried to wake herself up and it was still there at the side of the bed. She's like, 'Oh, this is a bit weird,' and then she thought, 'Oh okay, maybe I am actually still dreaming.'
Moderator 1: Yes?
Nivek: So, she sat up, picked Darren up because we had, like, a side cot next to the bed and held her with her and then she felt asleep again. She woke up and it was, like, still around there and she's like, 'This is a bit weird.' So, then she woke me up and then I was like, 'Yes,' she's like, 'No, do you see that?' I was like, 'No,' and it wasn't there anymore. So, it was just, kind of, a weird experience.
Moderator 1: That's a good one. I would like her to tell it, I felt like she'd be better at that.
Nivek: Much better, like, really the worst version that you got.
Moderator 2: On a side to that then, what about, like, interesting quirks because I imagine obviously this place is steeped in tradition?
Nivek: Yes, there's no movement inside or outside of the Tower between 21:30 and 22:15.
Moderator 2: Morning or night?
Moderator 1: 21:30 and 22:15?
Nivek: Every evening. So, it's the Ceremony of the Keys, so that's the official locking up of the Tower.
Moderator 2: Yes?
Nivek: Again, this is done by the military, so I'm not involved in that part of it, but it's a tradition that's been going on for about 750 years. It was late I think once during the Second World War when we were hit during the Blitz. Nobody was killed. So, they had to write a letter to king to say, 'Your Majesty, we're terribly sorry but the Tower was hit, the ceremony was late.'
Moderator 2: Wow.
Nivek: I think he said, again, this is-, I think is a bit of artistic licence, 'I'm glad nobody was killed or hurt too badly, but don't let it be late again.' So, it's just never been late. So, that's just been happening every day at 22:00. The bugler will play The Last Post to remember everybody that's fallen in combat and that's across the world really. So, that's just-,
Moderator 1: Can you hear that from outside? Obviously you can't come in at that time, that's the whole point, but if we stood outside you could hear it?
Nivek: You could hear it, the public-, it's open for the public to see.
Moderator 1: Oh it is, okay.
Nivek: It is, you just need to book a ticket in advance, it's free. I think it was free, there might have been an administrator charge added to it recently, so you might need to edit that.
Moderator 1: It's okay, I know the (inaudible 27.58).
Nivek: People can come and see it, so every night there's a briefing for people, visitors to come and watch it. It's really special because it's nice to see the Tower at night and when nobody is here. You get a real sense of the place, it's pretty cool. I quite like-, and it goes on every day of the year, so there's never an off day. It's never not happening, even during lockdown, it happened literally every day.
Moderator 2: That's amazing. Right then, this might be a really obvious question.
Nivek: Yes?
Moderator 2: Then if all the Tower is locked, does that mean you can't come and go after?
Nivek: You can but if you want to come in after midnight, you used to have to remember the secret password that changed every day. That's why at 15:00, I said, 'Oh, it's not 15:00 yet.' The password gets marched from the guard room to the king's house. That word is then delivered to the Byward Tower where there's somebody on watch 24/7. So, without that word you couldn't get in previously but we realised that. You know, being good citizens for people who actually just went to the opera or to the ballet, I don't go to either.
Moderator 2: No-one goes to the pub.
Nivek: Yes, exactly. Maybe you'd forget that, right?
Moderator 2: Yes, sometimes. It just happens, yes.
Nivek: It's possible, and if you don't have it then you couldn't come in, so.
Moderator 1: Yes, and are you allowed to tell us about any of the, like, VIPs that you've had here? Like, any celebs that you've been like, 'Wow, that's cool,' or you've been like, 'Wow, that's a famous person down there, how exciting.'
Nivek: Yes, I mean I'm probably-, it's an honour because you get to meet lots of interesting people. I don't know what kind of people would be of interest to you because we get members of the royal family, now King Charles was here visited us in February of 2020, just before lockdown actually. So, that was really special. Tom Cruise, Jeff Bezos. Yes, it's weird because it's not for me to decide, right? These people come, I want to give them a good time.
Moderator 1: Yes, of course.
Nivek: There are people that do, like-, you wonder, yes, what's the parameter in which you could resist because we're all human.
Moderator 1: Yes. (TC 00:30:00)
Nivek: So, you can't remove yourself from your job function. It's, like, that. Then you've got to put a professional hat on and do what you're here for which is to provide them with a memorable experience because yes, it's tricky sometimes. Not always, but I think most recently King Maui (ph 30.19), so the king of Maui in New Zealand, and that was really special because his family were really nice, they were really down to Earth and that's pretty cool.
Moderator 1: Have any of them smelt really good? I always think this about famous people, I'm always like-,
Nivek: Oh, yes.
Moderator 1: I want to know how they smell.
Nivek: Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, I remember that. Not here, the National Portrait Gallery a while ago.
Moderator 2: Great smelling couple?
Nivek: Yes, I remember that distinctly because we had the Lucian Freud exhibition on and Lucian Freud, the artist died as he was curating that exhibition, so it was a blockbuster exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery. They came, I was duty manager and somebody was sick in the last room of the exhibition and that's what they came to see.
Moderator 2: Oh no. Somebody was sick?
Nivek: Yes, red wine as well. Not good sick. Thank goodness we had really effective teams who really just did a lot of the leg work in cleaning and, kind of, barring off the the area. And people made a lot of money a lot of money to this, it was a sold out exhibition so people still wanted to see the paintings near where we cordoned off, so even that was challenge for the front of house teams again. The teams take a lot of the flack but in times of need and crisis, they're the ones that are there (talking over each other 31.25) dealing with things right.
Moderator 1: I agree, I was once sick in art gallery.
Moderator 2: Were you?
Moderator 1: Up Birmingham, yes.
Nivek: Self-inflicted or?
Moderator 2: Self-inflicted?
Moderator 1: No it wasn't, it was just in the middle of the day. I think we'd gone for lunch, like, Wagamama's and then I didn't feel very well and I think it was really hot. And I just felt a bit woozy and then I was sick and the security guard wasn't impressed, funnily enough.
Moderator 2: You know you have, like, family stories that everyone at every Christmas you talk about that thing, my Grandad went on tour of Buckingham Palace and was sick at Buckingham Palace.
Moderator 1: Wow.
Nivek: Wow.
Moderator 2: I think that's a good one.
Moderator 1: I immediately just think carpet.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Oh.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Nightmare.
Nivek: Yes, so we cleaned it up. It didn't smell the best but they didn't let us know they were offended by it but it was clearly an offensive, kind of, environment to be in and they left. So, yes.
Moderator 2: And they smelt good?
Nivek: They smelt brilliant. I think this is a podcast about smells.
Moderator 2: Yes, yes. (talking over each other 32.17). Are you still-, we tend to ask this whenever we're in a historical place rather than a museum building, are you still discovering things from around the site? Like, you told us-, obviously this is 200 years ago, but you told us about the bodies of potentially the princes being found on the staircase, are there artefacts that pop up still?
Nivek: Yes. Yes. When we were doing the moat project recently Superbloom, there was some excavation in the moat and obviously there were lots of things that have been found there, that were found in the moat that's a really interesting archaeological space.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Like, some stone pipes, some-, I think a flintlock pistol that was handed to the police and stuff like that. So-, an old one, not like a new one.
Moderator 2: Yes, that's amazing.
Nivek: Yes, that's pretty cool.
Moderator 2: I'm reading a book at the moment about mudlarking and there's a bit in it about the Tower of London and it said that the Tower of London, for the first time in it's history opened up (talking over each other 33.13). Yes, yes. And the person who wrote the book went down and she said it was like chaos.
Nivek: We used to do it once a year. Like, there was an event where the foreshore would be open and mudlarkers would be invited to come and explore for the foreshore.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: (inaudible 33.26) if you think of how many ships, like, that used to just be docked there was carnage, like, that place would have been full of cargo ships that would just be docking to sell their goods to the people on this wharf. Because this was where you'd have markets and it was an economic hub because it's close to the city as well. And any ships that would come past would have to pay their taxes to the Constable of the towers, the guy that stays in the King's house that I told you about earlier. So they'd have to pay their taxes, they'd usually pay him in barrels of rum and then before they got to the city that's, kind of, a tax that they would pay. So still to this day there's still the thing called an Official call (ph 34.02), where any ships coming into London will bring their Navy (ph 34.05) out, will be met by governor of the Tower of London and welcomed because of that tradition. Again, I meet the people that come in from all over the world, so the Brazilian, Dutch NATO ships and then take them around a tour of the jailhouses. It's a nice way us to welcome, it's a nice way for them being hosted as well. Then they go for breakfast.
Moderator 1: That's really cool. I find it ironic that you, Meg, that you are reading a book on mudlarking because you're the least muddy person I've ever met. I can't imagine you getting muddy.
Moderator 2: I would love to get muddy.
Moderator 1: Would you?
Moderator 2: So it's my 30th birthday this year and I really want to go and do river hunting and mudlarking for my birthday.
Nivek: What's river hunting?
Moderator 2: Well, it's this amazing programme Nivek.
Nivek: I'm probably being ignorant. I'm not being flippant, carry on. I'm listening. I'm listening.
Moderator 1: No it's fine. Very niche.
Moderator 2: It's these three lovely boys who go to, like, rivers where they know that something like a historical battle has happened and they go-, instead of mudlarking on the foreshore, you actually go into the river and, like, dig down with metal detectors. I want to do that so bad, I just want to find something.
Nivek: So what's stopping you?
Moderator 2: You have to get licenses.
Nivek: (inaudible 35.15)
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Okay.
Moderator 2: Yes, yes, I mean to buy a metal detector. I just want to hold it, I like to hold the stuff.
Moderator 1: And then put it back?
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Oh right, okay. Fine.
Moderator 2: Well no, maybe put it back but then give it-, you have to offer it to (inaudible 35.25).
Nivek: To fishing, take it and put it back. Right.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Nivek: Catch and release.
Moderator 2: Yes, yes. I don't know if it's gone the same, sort of, theatre for me. I want to feel like I'm in a movie where I've just discovered the most important in the world. This hat.
Moderator 1: Yes. Nivek's post.
Moderator 2: I might get that Nivek, I think that's really good. Okay, I think we're onto our last questions.
Nivek: Okay, we're onto the last questions, go for it.
Moderator 2: Right, okay. So what's been your favourite day at work?
Nivek: Okay, Loud Tate 2008. A friend of mine Sonia Eukini (ph 35.58) and I, were the ones in charge of creating an event for young people at Tate Britain, it involved music, it involved welcoming then, doing stuff in relation to the collection. It was a huge thing for us because we just didn't-, I didn't have the experience at the time. Sonia was an artist and we had (mw 36.14) and Benga. Long story short, everything was a success, it was the most popularity (ph 36.19) that we've done but there was a point in which we were waiting for the artist to turn up and he just was late. And we had a tent of about 800 young people, I want to say, waiting. And it was, like, this could go horribly wrong because we were on the premises of Tate Britain in between the core (ph 36.37) gallery and the main entrance. And I remember Mark Muller (ph 36.39) and I were just like, I hope this turns up, like, this works. Because this is, like, on the precipice of being huge success or an immense failure. And it was that moment of the guy turned up late, about half an hour, whatever the reason was fine. But he turned up and everything went well, it was just that elation of the up and down of the day. The uncertainty, the work that went into it. And just, particularly Mark actually and his team, trusting us enough and Felicity Alan (ph 37.07) I think (mw 37.07) as well but there was many-, Rebecca Sinker (ph 37.08), really good people at Tate Britain at that time. Really passionate about young people, really giving us a voice and a space. And I think actually, if it wasn't for them I probably would have left the sector because I felt like it probably wasn't for me.
But they really solidified at that point in my career, because I was front of house, I think if I just did that without the youth I probably would have left, because it was just so degrading if I'm honest. It's changed now and it's changing but is it enough? I don't know. So that's one day. That was really nice, I think being at the National Portrait Gallery when Kate Middleton made her first public appearance because she was a patron of the National Portrait gallery so that was the first time she made a public appearance as, I think, the Duchess. So that was quite cool. I think the days out with my team, so when we go out and we, like, team build. So we went axe throwing and got to make our own gin and do social things.
Moderator 2: That's nice.
Nivek: Those are cool things and, like, bonding with people. Because breaking bread is important and we spend a lot of time with each other at work. Like, often more time than we spend with our families, so we want to make those relationships meaningful. It's not always possible and not everybody will be friends but if we can actually create the culture of transparency and openness and flexibility that's good. Because that means people can work in a nice environment and that people feel valued as people versus, like, everybody's just here to do a job.
Moderator 2: I think that's the first time we've had someone say that actually, and I think that's so important isn't it?
Moderator 1: It is.
Moderator 2: Yes, people talking about how much they love working with their teams and stuff but actually there's sometimes not enough value on their outside sociable bit away from-, when you take people away from the space that they work in, that's when you build those relationships that are valuable when you put them back in.
Nivek: And it's hard because people do a lot of hours so the time they do have for themselves choosing to then do that with people that you spend a lot of time with, it's a hard ask.
Moderator 1: It is and it's take a lot of build up doesn't it, to get there. I know that it's the same with us. I think we're quite good at it but it takes effort because someone flippantly said-, you go out with your work friends, I'm like, yes but it takes effort to try and build that up and get the balance right and it also makes us better at working together. Because I think if you start to understand people, how they operate as people, you can then figure out what works for them in a work environment because, you know, not everyone is the same. People might have similar roles but what works for them might not work for another. Yes, it's really quite telling when you take people out that environment, what makes them tick and how you can use that positively to make a better environment for everybody.
Nivek: Yes. It's lovely
Moderator 2: Apparently for you guys it's axes.
Moderator 1: Everyone likes-, you know.
Nivek: Throwing an axe.
Moderator 1: Yes. So the last one is two fold question, it is from everything that we've talked about today-, and we have talked about a lot. What would be your ten second snippet for listeners (TC 00:40:00) to take away? And on the other hand what is your actual, literal, favourite takeaway?
Nivek: Okay, ten second takeaway is listen to yourself when people tell you you're not going to do. It's a challenge and they're actually talking about themselves not you.
Moderator 2: Nice, that's a really good one. And then you're actual takeaway.
Nivek: Ever? (ph 40.18).
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Nivek: Because I've been vegan now so I still fantasise about my favourite takeaway. See, my stomachs making noise. (talking over each other 40.23)
Moderator 1: You can go back to, you know, the good old days.
Moderator 2: Yes. Yes, yes.
Nivek: Good old meat (ph 40.27) days. There's a, kind of, actually boring. But there's a place in-, it's not even-, it's near Croydon actually that does lamb on the bone that reminds me of my grandmothers food. So I think it's just really good curry that's got flavour, most of the places here don't have that level of flavour of actual home-cooked food. So it's like that food's the best.
Moderator 2: Dio you want to give a shout out to the name of it?
Nivek: Yes, it's called The Grange.
Moderator 2: The Grange.
Nivek: In Wallington.
Moderator 2: In Wallington.
Nivek: Yes. That's-,
Moderator 1: Sounds really good.
Nivek: It is amazing.
Moderator 2: Okay. One day we're going to go and go to all of these that were suggested as we said.
Moderator 1: Yes, a takeaway tour.
Nivek: Feels like there's a blog attached to that.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Yes, yes. Nivek, thank you so much, literally longest recording we'e done and I feel like it's going to be really hard edit that because there's lots of good meat in there.
Moderator 1: And vegan alternatives.
Moderator 2: And vegan alternatives.
Nivek: And vegan alternatives. Okay.
Moderator 2: Yes. Thank you for being a wonderful guest.
Nivek: You're welcome.
Moderator 1: Thank you.
Moderator 2: Hi we're back. I hope you enjoyed that, that was literally just-, I'm still not over it.
Moderator 1: No, no, what a wonderful time.
Moderator 2: After we recorded Nivek took us downstairs and, like, we went and had a look at the crown jewels and, like, we really rinsed the Tower of London didn't we?
Moderator 1: Absolutely.
Moderator 2: And like-,
Moderator 1: We rinsed that (talking over each other 41.38) ticket.
Moderator 2: Yes. And spent, like-,
Moderator 1: Thank you.
Moderator 2: So long in the Beauchamp tower just marvelling.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: And then there was a beautiful sunset. Had an amazing cake in the café.
Moderator 1: Cafe's wicked.
Moderator 2: God, that cake was really good. If you go to the Tower of London, get the one that's, like, blackberry loaf, sponge-like, it was really good.
Moderator 1: Really good.
Moderator 2: What was your best thing?
Moderator 1: My best thing was-, and it actually surprised me because I find the Tower of London a difficult one because of the connotations with the monarchy and empire and all the rest of it, it's got a big history. I didn't think I'd be bothered about the crown jewels, like, I don't know. It doesn't relate to me. However the thing I did find interesting, and I am going to get to the point, is the fact that it's a properly working collection. And that's quite rare.
Moderator 2: Yes, and there were loads of, like-, obviously because it's in the build up to the coronation there were loads of them missing, right.
Moderator 1: There was stuff not there, because it's actually going to go out and be cleaned and conserved to be used and I find that made it more relatable in a way. I don't know. What was yours?
Moderator 2: Really hard to pick to be totally honest. Listening to him talk about his background, like, so interesting. And he just has such a-, he's got such an interesting manner about him I think where he-, I, kind of, feel like he feels directly into my soul and understands everything about museums.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Do you know what I mean?
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: He's like, kind of, like, an oracle.
Moderator 1: He's super engrained in it and he's obviously really passionate about his team and that's why his team are amazing.
Moderator 2: Yes, shout out to front of house.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Oh, shout out to Ben.
Moderator 1: Ben, yes.
Moderator 2: Ben, Ben, Ben.
Moderator 1: Really good, yes.
Moderator 2: Ben was great. Yes we saw Ben and he was really.
Moderator 1: And Gary.
Moderator 2: Oh Gary, Gary was one of the, like, tower wardens maybe.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Anyway on that note, thank you so much for listening, I know that was quite a long one but god so worth it. Thank you to Nivek, thank you Historic Royal Palaces for letting us have Nivek for, like, two hours. Transcripts are on the website if you want them.
Moderator 1: Yes, if you'd like to rate, subscribe, pass it along to your pals please do.
Moderator 2: And thank you to Tim Bentley who did our theme music for us and thank you to Alphany (ph 43.35) who did our cover artwork. I think that's it, is it?
Moderator 1: I think that's the lot, yes. No.
Moderator 2: I'm going to dine out on that for such a long time.
Moderator 1: It is a properly pinch me moment.
Moderator 2: Okay have a great time everyone.
Moderator 1: See you later. Bye.
Moderator 2: See you later. Bye.
