We have more than just butt plugs

The most butt heavy episode we've had yet. And that's saying something.

Today's wonderful guest is Amelia Silver, a Curating for Change Fellow working with the Thackray Museum to make museums more accessible for people with disabilities. Amelia tells us all about her route into her role, including lots about her own disability and how that lead to her working on this project. We get into what museums could be doing better,  their new exhibition Private Parts and where to look for sex toys in Leeds City Centre.

Variety! It's the butt plug of life.

If you liked the episode, listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.

Ps. At the end of this episode, we do our usual thanks to Tim Bentley for doing our theme music, and to Alex Finney for doing our... theme music. Al did our cover artwork! Silly sausages.

Transcript

Sara: Up here. 

Meg: There, like that. 

Sara: Sounded like I smoke 50 a day then. 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: Welcome to Museums And That (ph 00.09) podcast, where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We, your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds museums and galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. 

Meg: You really struggled with that last bit, I don't know why. 

Sara: I find museums and galleries, I find that hard, like, my mouth finds it hard to say. 

Meg: 'These museums and galleries', it's a lot. 

Sara: Like, the shape that your mouth makes is just difficult. 

Meg: Which is why we just call it LMG. Who can be bothered to say all of those bits. 

Sara: Go on, tell me one thing from your week. 

Meg: Bit crazy, went and got a couple of new tattoos didn't it? 

Sara: She did. 

Meg: Yes. 

Sara: You just want everyone to think you're cool, go on, tell us about them. 

Meg: I'm not cool. 

Sara: At this point it's like, I'm just getting older and getting tattoos. Sara's got a big love heart that says 'Mom' on it. 

Meg: Yes, M-O-M. 

Sara: Yes, and then a ship's anchor. 

Meg: Yes, didn't Bart Simpson get something like that? I feel like he did. Yes, so got a couple of new tattoos because I'm really cool and now I just need for the weather to be better so I'm not-, 

Sara: Get your ankles out. 

Meg: Get my ankles out, yes, you know, and that little bit of arm. 

Sara: Tart. 

Meg: Yes, what would the Victorians say? They'd have a lot to say about it anyway, wouldn't they. How about you? What's your thing? 

Sara: My thing is actually that I've not told you this yet, is that I went to a preview the other day at the art gallery. Chatting away to Lisa, our head operations, chat, chat, chat, la la la. This guy comes up to me, like, just taps me on the back like that and he goes, 'I'm really sorry, we're not met before. You don't know me, but I just wanted to say that I listen to the podcast and like, i like the little videos that you do and stuff and I just think it's really good, like really great.' And, I was like, oh my god, this is literally so cool, because I love it when that happens. It's happened like, twice, and then I was like, 'What's your name?' Which I've forgotten, so I'm really sorry. I think he said, in my head I've got Adam. 

Meg: Okay. 

Sara: Or, Alex, or something. If this is about you and you're listening I'm so sorry, please tell me what your name is because I had a glass of wine you know. I'd had two. 

Meg: That was your quota. 

Sara: And, I was like, 'What do you do?' And, he's a sound artist which makes me think that I am art. 

Meg: Oh, for god's sake, wow, I really had to hold my tongue there. Yes, okay, great. 

Sara: A sound artist is literally like, 'I like your sound. This is art.' 

Meg: I think you might have doubly offended this person by A, forgetting their name and now dumbing down their practise. 

Sara: I know, I do feel really bad about the name. I'm so bad at it, I'm really bad at remembering names but I remember exactly what he looked like and everything he said. 

Meg: Apart from his name. 

Sara: Apart from his name, and I was like, I'm going to dine out on this for a really long time, and I am. 

Meg: Yes, absolutely. 

Sara: Anyway, what are we talking about today? 

Meg: Today we are talking about a museum around the corner actually, Thackeray Museum of Medicine. 

Sara: Yes, in Leeds, off of Leeds. Greatest city in the world. 

Meg: Greatest city in the world, with Amelia Silver. 

Sara: Amelia Silver, yes. 

Meg: Which I really want to put 'D' in front of her surname. I really want to make it 'Amelia D'Silver'. 

Sara: D'Silver. 

Meg: Yes, like she's a pirate, I don't know. 

Sara: Amelia D'Silver, that is actually cool isn't it? 

Meg: It is cool. 

Sara: Sorry Amelia. 

Meg: Your name's still cool. So, Amelia is the curating for change fellow. She's working on the representation of disability in museums, so we're talking to her about that and her new exhibition which is called-, 

Sara: Private Parts. 

Meg: Yes, it is, and that really sets the tone for what this is going to be like by the way. 

Sara: Yes, we might need like, a little disclaimer in there that we talk a lot about private parts from a museum context. 

Meg: Any shy ears, don't listen. Let's crack on. 

Sara: Yes, here we go. 

Meg: Here we go, enjoy Amelia Silver's episode of Museums and That, everyone. Have we all finished our teas? 

Sara: Nearly. 

Meg: Lovely cup of tea. Okay, so the first question we ask all of our guests Amelia is, who the flip are you? 

Amelia Silver: So, my name's Amelia, but my friends call me Mia and my family call me Millie. 

Meg: Wow, that's not confusing at all. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, I've got a few names. 

Sara: What are we going to call you? 

Amelia Silver: Maybe we wait until the end? 

Meg: Yes. 

Amelia Silver: So, I'm from Leicester, but I live in Leeds now and I'm the curating for change curatorial fellow for the Thackeray Museum of Medicine. I can tell you about the programme, it's run by a company called Screen South and they have a culture, like, heritage arm called Accentuate, and they run this programme. And, it helps people who have disabilities get jobs in museums basically. They call it leading in museums but I'm not really leading much, I'm an assistant and I love what I do. And, there's eight of us and we're all based in different museums up and down the country. We all have, like, completely different disabilities, different life experiences, and we're all trying to uncover hidden stories of people with disabilities in museums, and advocate for access and representation and stuff. 

Sara: Very cool. 

Meg: Can you tell us a little bit more about your background and how you got to be on the, kind of, programme? 

Amelia Silver: Yes, so I did archaeology and anthropology at the University of Bristol. 

Meg: Did you? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Sara: Did you ever dig anything up? Did you do any digs? 

Amelia Silver: We did have a dig, we did a field school every year but it was pretty much everything that could be found was found. 

Sara: That's annoying, so they're just getting you to clear the ground? 

Meg: Wait, do they go back to, like, the same place every year? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Meg: That's really unfair. 

Sara: You're just maintaining it really, you're just Parks and Countryside. 

Amelia Silver: I missed the year where they dug up a bit of an old cemetery so I didn't get to do that bit. I got to the first bit where I didn't personally find anything but some people did find stuff. Somebody found a Neolithic arrow head one year which was quite cool. 

Meg: That's cool. 

Amelia Silver: I thought I found a bit of clay smoking pipe. Turns out it'd just blown out of the 'Finds' tray. Somebody else had found it. 

Sara: That's so sad. 

Amelia Silver: I was so excited. 

Sara: Anyway sorry, tell us about your background. So, you did archaeology at Bristol? 

Amelia Silver: Yes, and anthropology and then I had a couple of years out, I worked in retail for a bit and then I did a bit of a panic masters when COVID started. 

Sara: I nearly did one of those. 

Amelia Silver: And, so when I was still in York, part way through my dissertation, this was like August 2021, I noticed something wrong with my right eye. And, within the space of a week I went from having completely perfect 20/20 vision, well not 20/20, I wore glasses, to like it being so weird and distorted that I couldn't walk to the kitchen without feeling dizzy. It was so weird. It was like having a filter. You know the filter that makes people's faces twist? It was like that but just for one eye and everything was like that. So, within that week they injected me, they inject into your eyeball. Sorry if people are weird about eye things. You know, anything goes, so they did that injection and then a month later they did another one. So, it took a long time but it did get better but it is a permanent thing now. It's scarred, I haven't got a diagnosis. It's like, something similar to something called PIC which is where you have blood vessels at the back of your eye and something leaks or the blood vessels leak or there's fluid. Something like that. It's been explained to me in so many different ways that I-, yes, and that's what causes the distortion because it, like, pokes through the membrane at the back of your eye. 

Meg: Do you want to know a fun fact? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Meg: Me too. 

Amelia Silver: Really, no way? 

Meg: Yes, right eye, yes I'm like half blind in my right eye, have been since I was little. 

Amelia Silver: Oh my god, snap. 

Meg: But, they only recognised it when I, sort of, started having to have eye tests at, like, primary school and stuff. But, yes same thing in the back of my eye. There's just a bit like 'doof'. I have never met anyone else that has, like, the same thing. That's mad. 

Amelia Silver: No, I've not either. I think it's quite common among, like, young women. The doctor I saw anyway thought it was maybe some kind of autoimmune thing. They don't really know what it is. 

Meg: This is a really annoying question but, when they inject you in the eye does it really hurt? 

Amelia Silver: No, they numb you. 

Meg: Oh they numb you, how do they numb your eye? Just like drops? 

Amelia Silver: They put drop in, yes. So, you can feel it. It sort of feels like somebody's, like, pushing on your eye but you can't see it. You're looking over to the side, they're not coming right straight in. But, it's more afterwards that it's painful because it, like, goes a bit gammy, it weeps. Sorry, that's a bit gross, and it's a bit gritty and painful but usually only for 24 hours and then you're fine. 

Meg: Eyeballs are mad, aren they? 

Amelia Silver: Aren't they. 

Meg: Like, madness. 

Amelia Silver: You can't replace them. 

Meg: What are they made out of? 

Amelia Silver: Eyeball. They're their own unique thing. 

Meg: It's like jelly, I don't know, hard jelly. 

Sara: Bits of stuff. Did it shape your career aspirations or what you wanted to do? 

Amelia Silver: I still wanted to do heritage but I had that, kind of, panic of, 'Oh my god, I can't look at a computer screen, I can't read. I'm not going to be able to do anything.' And, I already knew it was really hard to get into heritage so the, sort of, tentative plan was to do something adjacent like do some part time admin work while I was finishing my dissertation or something like that. But, that kind of went out the window because I was like, I can't look at a computer screen full time. So, I sort of took some time off to try and not think about it as much because I was just down at the time, quite depressed, because I didn't know-, there was a lot of, like, medical trauma because no one had really explained to me what was going on. So, I was at home for a few months, and then I saw this job come up for this thing that was specifically for people with disabilities and I was like, 'That's me, I need that.' And, I applied for it and I got it (TC 00:10:00). 

Meg: That's fabulous. 

Amelia Silver: I was worried I wasn't going to be disabled enough for it. 

Meg: It's so sad that you were obviously going through all of these things at the same time as COVID, at the same time as making quite a big life decision about the career you wanted to do and therefore doing more education to do that, and then this traumatic thing happening. That's really tough and the fact that you then had the thing of, 'Maybe I'm not disabled enough.' Like, where do we draw the line? That's a lot. 

Sara: So, is this your first, like, museum job? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Sara: How are you finding it? Is it like what you expected it would be? 

Amelia Silver: I think because I worked in retail a lot my idea of people who worked in offices was like, what do they do all day? I don't understand, what's a big girl job like? And, then I got here and took a few months to settle into it but I really enjoy it, yes. 

Sara: So, tell us about the museum, because I always get stressed saying it by the way, Thackeray, Thackeray. 

Amelia Silver: Thackeray, yes you just kind of ignore the 'a'. We were talking about this earlier because of awkward Yorkshire place names, and Thackeray, I know it's a person's name, but it also falls in that remit doesn't it? 

Meg: Thackeray, we've said that so many times it's stopped making sense to me now. So, tell us about the museum. 

Amelia Silver: So, it's a medical museum. It's got a lot of Victorian gore which a lot of people like. I think there have been a few TikToks going around about the Victorian street, disease street which stinks. So, you're supposed to be able to go through-, 

Sara: It's authentic. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, you're supposed to be able to go through and spot all the different health hazards that are in there. 

Meg: What disease does it smell like? 

Amelia Silver: It just smells like filth. 

Sara: It smells like the great unwashed. 

Meg: Poo. 

Amelia Silver: Not quite poo, it's like foisty, it's like a stuffy smell like somebody's not washed in a really long time. 

Meg: A bit drainy. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, a bit drainy, greasy. 

Meg: We'll go out and we'll go down and we'll do-, 

Sara: I have a very weak constitution, I'm not going to lie but yes. Anyway, Victorian streets. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, and then you go through into the Victorian operation theatre which has got a video of a girl getting her leg amputated. You don't actually see the amputation but it is-, 

Meg: Is it real or is it an act? 

Amelia Silver: It's an actor, it's not real, don't worry. Because, they didn't have loads of technical camera equipment to be filming there. 

Meg: You know people still get their legs amputated today though. 

Amelia Silver: I know but it's shown on a screen. 

Meg: No, but I didn't know whether it was a video of like, now, like amputated now. I didn't realise it was a Victorian thing, but it fits with the theme of the Victorian street. I see that now. 

Amelia Silver: But, there's so much more than just the Victorian gore. If you go upstairs there's a gallery called the apothecary shop where there's loads of gorgeous old pots that would have had health remedies in them some of them. Maybe some of them worked, some of them probably not. 

Sara: But, the pots are pretty. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, the pots are pretty. What else is there? There's a whole section called the Normal In Me gallery which is about difference and that's like a co-created gallery. So, there's lots of, like, patient stories in there, that's a really good one. There's a LEGO room for kids. There's an under fives' play sensory area. 

Sara: I'm waiting for you to say it, by the way. 

Amelia Silver: The temporary gallery? Well, we have a new temporary gallery. 

Sara: Full of what Amelia? 

Amelia Silver: Full of butt-plugs. 

Meg: We are so childish. 

Sara: I met Amelia for, like, five minutes downstairs. 

Amelia Silver: You said 'butt-plugs' about 600 times. 

Sara: It's just not something you expect to talk about at ten o'clock in a museum. 

Amelia Silver: No. 

Sara: Butt-plugs, and then you showed us them. 

Amelia Silver: I did, yes. 

Meg: There's more in there. 

Sara: Yes, go on, tell us about your exhibition. 

Amelia Silver: So, the exhibition is called Private Parts, it's a comfortable space to talk about uncomfortable things. It's about health, identity and pleasure. It's about access to intimate healthcare and how people's identity might affect that, whether they have a disability or if they are trans or LGBT or anything else, the colour of their skin. How that might affect the way that they are able to access intimate healthcare and the experience that they have in a medical setting. It's not all doom and gloom, we've got some fun sex toys in there as well, we have a whole section about pleasure and especially how this idea of people with debilitates not being interested in sex. So, there's a bit of discussion of that as well, there's going to be, like, a selfie booth where you can point at something that looks like your private parts. There's a still life drawing section, there's a chaise lounge. 

Sara: It's a really good space, like it's super bright and welcoming and fun, and I think that's really important for something like that. Especially when you associate private parts with either, well, kind of uncomfortable situations or being in a doctors' surgery or a hospital environment which is very stark and white and grey. It's really nice to just be, like, 'This is fun.' 

Meg: Has that exhibition then been the main source of your work here? 

Amelia Silver: Lately it's been the biggest thing I've been working on. I've also been working on some other things which I'll be able to pick up more when Private Parts is live and finished at the end of this week. So, I've been working on changing up one of the displays in the Normal In Me gallery. So, I've been working with an artist from Pyramid of the Arts. So, somebody's come in to revamp one of our displays and we're doing it about colour and communication and because she's non verbal we're not really using, like, traditional labels. Not really using quotes like we normally would because that just wouldn't make sense, so instead we're trying to do it more visually, trying to use her language in a way to communicate what she thinks about some of the objects that we have. So, there's that, trying to wrack my brains now because it's just full of Private Parts, I can't think of anything else. 

Meg: There are worse problems to have I suppose. 

Amelia Silver: God, it's good isn't it. 

Meg: I suppose how does this, like, fit into the bigger project? Because, you said there's eight of you across the country but in terms of the wider project, how important is it for you particularly being at Thackeray do you think? 

Amelia Silver: So, one of the debates in disabled politics, I guess, is this idea of being over medicalised, like being poked and prodded throughout your whole life, having maybe a bit of medical trauma and just being seen as your disability rather than anything else, rather than a person. So, those are two quite difficult things to marry together of, like, trying to de-medicalise disabled people but we're in a medical museum so all of our collections are medical. If we do an exhibition or display it has to have something to do with medicine, so it's like, how do we do that without just talking about that person's disability? So, we get co-curators in and we'll find a different angle. So, with Private Parts we're not just going around and asking everybody, 'Tell me about your disability then.' It's like, for example, one of the co-curators is a fashion influencer, she's a wheelchair user, so she talked a lot about her fashion sense and some of the sex stuff that we were talking about as well. So, we're not just making it really singular, we're not just talking about this person's disability, we're talking about them as a whole person. Does that make sense? 

Meg: Yes absolutely. 

Sara: Yes, yes. I have a personal question, and feel free not to answer it, but the museum is based at St James hospital and, like, does that ever trigger you having to come here everyday as a place of work? Do you find that hard at all? 

Amelia Silver: I did at first, I think I was a bit worried when I started here because it was all so fresh and I was having a lot of health anxiety because it was, like, this whole idea that I'd had this condition for probably years and never noticed it because all of the flare ups were so peripheral in my vision that it never was visible. And, this thing was going on in my body that I didn't know about, so then I was thinking what else could be going on in my body that I don't know about? I became quite anxious about what if I have cancer and I don't know about it and all of this. So, I did avoid, sort of, medical content for a while but I just thought at some point you're just going to have to face it head on. By the time I started here I think I was getting a lot better. The last time I had an injection I didn't have a mental breakdown so that's a step in the right direction I guess. 

Meg: Thumbs up. 

Sara: Nice. 

Amelia Silver: And, it is really interesting especially when we did the (mw 18.29) when I first started, just seeing all the eye stuff, all the glass eyes and all the ophthalmology equipment because I know so intimately what it's like now. So, to see what it was like before and count my lucky stars that I was born now and not back then. 

Sara: Yes, it's a really interesting thing and I think you obviously, clearly want to be part of the fight to change it and to put yourself into that vulnerable position and coming to an environment that can be quite challenging, that's amazing. 

Amelia Silver: And, I didn't want to keep putting on a brave face and being like-, 

Sara: And, pretending that nothing was wrong. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, I'm a good patient, I do X, Y and Z and then people at work or my friends would ask me what it's like having an injection and I'd be like, 'It's fine, you know, it's okay. It's fine.' But, it's not fine actually. 

Sara: No, it sounds terrifying. 

Amelia Silver: It's not very nice, sometimes your eyeballs get scratched and I think there's a fine line between I didn't want to sound like I was being dramatic but at the same time for a a lot of people it's not fine. So, I didn't want to pretend like it was all the time if you know what I mean. 

Sara: You're absolutely right to be vocal about it and go, 'This is how I feel.' Because, it's your mental health isn't it and it's just as important as your physical health. 

Meg: Sara mentioned then about being part of the fight, what is the thing that you want museums to change about the way that they represent disability in the galleries and how the sector, kind of, approaches it? 

Amelia Silver: So, I would like more representation, so not just access like we have ramps. Showing disabled (TC 00:20:00) people, showing their stories, like, whether it's patient stories or not. I can only really speak from a medical museum perspective because that's the only experience that I have, but like, proper access as well. Not just like, like I said, 'We've put some ramps in, there you go.' 

Sara: You can get in, so good luck. 

Amelia Silver: But, also things like thinking about the height of objects and where you put them and testing. So, when we were putting the objects in for Private Parts we had a wheelchair that we got out and every time we put an object in we would get down in the wheelchair and make sure that everything was visible from the height of an average wheelchair user. And, that was quite important to me because, you know, this whole exhibition is about representation so if we weren't making things accessible for everyone then what's the point? And, also things like easy read resources and large print labels, which I love because I can't read. And, audio content, just like, inventive, creative ways to engage people that isn't just a two hour long audio tour that tells you boring crap that you don't really need to know about. Like, actually actually interesting, engaging stories, not just an afterthought, something that is-, 

Sara: Part and parcel of the interpretation process and what the objective is going to be. 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Meg: I was going to ask you about the audio stuff because you emailed first like, a year ago to ask about audio and to, like, find out a little bit more about what we're doing with it but I wanted to find out what you're doing with it too now. 

Amelia Silver: So, the idea was I wanted to do more audio labels, audio descriptions of objects or some of the art that we have because I was looking into disability and art and just thought that would be a good, more interesting way of engaging people because you don't have to have a visual impairment to get something out of an audio description. And, we also were looking at doing some ASMR type thing but then I realise I hate ASMR. 

Meg: Do you? 

Amelia Silver: So, I can't edit it. Especially like-, 

Meg: The mouth sounds. 

Amelia Silver: No, no, no. 

Meg: Try editing Sara, mate, an absolute nightmare. 

Sara: I'm not that bad. 

Meg: So many mouth sounds. 

Sara: You were the one who was eating Christmas cake for breakfast this morning. 

Meg: My nana made it and she sent it out to me. 

Sara: Yes, but there are so many textures in there. 

Meg: So, ASMR you don't want to do? 

Amelia Silver: No, I don't think so. 

Meg: Well, we'll see. 

Sara: It's a difficult one isn't it because ASMR-, I recently went down to the design museum to see their ASMR exhibition and for some people, like, that's totally their thing and then for others, absolutely not at all. And, also what people think is ASMR versus-, because some people might go, 'Well I really like just watching the traffic go by.' This is the worst example ever, but hearing like the constant rumble of the traffic and that being quite a constant and-, 

Meg: Someone found you really funny. Someone finds traffic really funny. 

Sara: Yes, but then the bubble popping or people brushing their hair or something, and it's different things for different people, and I think it's very emotive and it's really hard. And, it was a difficult exhibition actually because it was a bit like, am I supposed to feel a certain way? So, I think it is a challenge to do ASMR definitely. 

Meg: I really want to do it, I think, at Leeds. Not necessarily with that kind of stuff but like, with conservation I think would be a really nice thing to do with all the brushing and stuff, and like unboxing stuff and bubblewrap and stuff. My ASMR thing is back cracking. I literally love that so much, like chiropractors. 

Amelia Silver: No, no. 

Meg: So, it's my 30th birthday this year and for my 30th birthday I want to go to Florida to get my back cracked by this woman called Brenda Mondragon and I follow her on Instagram and I'm literally obsessed with her. I'm so excited. 

Sara: I was just thinking about this when you were saying about making things more accessible and different ways of doing it, is it expensive? Like, making stuff accessible is expensive. Having a BSL interpreter or putting in additional creative interpretation options. That must be such a challenge, in a museum setting especially because funding is always an issue. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, you can't do everything. You can't always please everyone, as much as I'd like to. It is difficult. If we did loads of ASMR and audio content that would be great for people with learning disabilities or for people with a visual impairment, but if you're deaf then that's not going to be useful to you at all. 

Sara: Like, how do you manage that? 

Amelia Silver: So, I can only really talk from my personal experience of disability so I don't know what it's like to be a wheelchair user, I don't know what it's like to have a learning disability for example. So, I think we just, kind of, do what we can. So, like I was saying before with getting in and out of the wheelchair to check that everything was at the right height, that did mean that putting the objects in took probably twice as long as it normally would but at the same time I think that's just something that everyone should do anyway. I haven't really had to balance any budget things because that's above my pay grade. 

Meg: But, I was going to say, I suppose it's learning and everyone's experience are different so like you say, you can't please everyone but you're still going great lengths to be better than you were before. So, that's it. 

Amelia Silver: And, it's not just budget, it's time as well. So, I would love for some of our galleries to have large print labels and trails that tell you where to go and maybe easy read resources for each galley. But, we can't always have that on the wall because first of all, design, you know. It might not fit with the rest of the gallery, and then the cost of it as well. But, then trying to make some kind of handout would take a long time and it would probably be just me doing it. So, if I were to do that for every single gallery that would be my only job here. 

Sara: Yes, absolutely. 

Meg: Are there any museums that you've visited or you know of that are doing it really well that you want to emulate in some way or you think are just top tier for accessibility? 

Amelia Silver: So, I don't know about top tier, but I do know some of the other fellows are working in museums that are doing it quite well. Museum of Liverpool have quite a few different trails, so they've got an LGBT trail. I think they've got a black history trail as well, things like that. So, that you can experience the same museum but you might experience it in a slightly different way and it'll highlight different stories along the way. So, I think that's quite a good way of doing it. I think actually, in terms of physical accessibility the Thackeray is quite good. We've got changing places toilet which is, like, a disabled toilet but the changing facilities are bigger for older children or young adults. We've got the eyesight line of sight for our cases is 120 centimetres so it's a bit lower than other museums. 

Sara: And, that's challenging when you're in a really old building. Like, things break all the time and things were not made to accommodate newer technologies, bigger wheelchairs, people with disabilities of all ranges, like, they didn't make it. Because, medicine didn't care fr people as well. 

Amelia Silver: Well, this was a workhouse originally. 

Sara: Was it? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Sara: This is the thing, and it was never set up to look after people, let's be honest and now it's very much, 'We're here to be a welcoming, open accessible space.' But, you're just like, the basis we're working from wasn't there so we've got to just make the best. 

Meg: You know when people say it's a workhouse, what are they working on? What are they doing? Why did that work? 

Sara: I shouldn't laugh. 

Meg: What did they do? 

Amelia Silver: What did they do? I think they just give them whatever job to keep them busy. It was just like, where people came because they were too poor, wasn't it. Or, I think they had what they used to call a lunatic yard or something like that. 

Meg: What, people just like-, 

Sara: It was the next thing before prison, so people that didn't have anything, they were sent to the workhouse because then they were in a place where society didn't have to deal with them. 

Meg: I assumed that, like, the workhouse was a thing that had to be done and that everyone worked to do that in the workhouse. 

Sara: No, they all got given jobs. 

Amelia Silver: No, it was just kind of like, a factory. 

Sara: A dumping ground for people. 

Meg: Right, okay. Amelia? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Meg: When you're, kind of, developing these exhibitions do you work with disabilities communities and community groups? How does that work? 

Amelia Silver: Yes, so it's fairly new at the Thackeray, the co-curation thing. So, for Private Parts we've got eight different co-curators and we'll have meetings with them. They'll either come into the museum or we'll do Zoom for some of the people who can't come in. We'll have a chat, we'll show them some objects and then we'll usually take some of the quotes that they said and turn them into labels. And, then we check back in with them at every stage to make sure that they feel that they're being represented in a way that's true to them. And, we were making sure that all of the design as well was accessible. So, one of the co-producers is a wheelchair user, I asked her for her wheelchair dimensions so that we could make sure that she could get around and actually see the exhibition that she helped curate. Yes, it's basically getting people to come into the museum and we just chat. 

Meg: Has anything ever really surprised from, like, a session with them or anything you hadn't thought of that has changed the way that you've developed? 

Amelia Silver: Yes, lots of things, so many things because they're all people who have got such different life experiences to me and so, I sort of realised how sheltered I am and how little I know about the world based on what some of the co-producers have said. And, that's not just in terms of disability but some of the co-producers are part of Leeds Skyline Group, the support group for people living with HIV and one of the co-producers said you can't get life insurance because he has HIV. Even though he's undetectable so can't pass it on to anyone. 

Sara: That's such an archaic way of thinking isn't it? And, that just shows how much there is still to do. 

Amelia Silver: Yes, but if he'd got it through a blood transfusion, that's fine, you can have life insurance. But, because it wasn't, because it was (TC 00:30:00) sexually transmitted it's almost like they're saying that he's done it on purpose. 

Meg: It's your fault. 

Amelia Silver: Exactly, which is ridiculous, you would never say that to someone who, I don't know, contracted Ebola or somebody had flu and had to be off work for a bit. You'd never say, 'You went and got flu on purpose.' 

Meg: Yes, that's horrendous. 

Amelia Silver: But, it is, like you say, you would never produce an exhibition or display without that co-production element because that is an inherent part of your role. But, you've got to be willing to put yourself at risk sometimes to go, 'I don't actually know anything about this and I need help.' Because, that makes for a better experience, and it makes for a more, like, relatable experience and certainly in museums, that's the point of us. 

Meg: And, it's about, I think, getting comfortable feeling uncomfortable especially if we're talking about colonialism, race and things like that. We're talking about some issues in terms of the NHS and how I think there's a statistic where like, black women supposedly have the worst health in the population because it can be so difficult for them to access the care that they need and in terms of training for medical professionals. For example, if they're shown in a textbook what jaundice looks like in a baby, they'll be shown on a white baby. But, they're not trained to recognise jaundice on a black baby or a baby with darker. It's just one example. 

Sara: But, it's really obvious when you think about it though, isn't it? 

Meg: Yes exactly. 

Amelia Silver: I remember I think, last year, it was a statistic that was talked about on the news that black women are just hugely, much more likely to die in childbirth. I remember reading upon that whole thing and just being-, 

Meg: It's scary. So, just being able to sit back and shut up and listen to what other people are saying and try and empathise with them and just communicate their story in a way that is, like, true to them and in a way that they wanted it to be communicated. And, trying to keep any of our own prejudices, because, let's be honest, we all have them. 

Amelia Silver: Absolutely. 

Sara: Unconscious bias or conscious bias. 

Meg: Exactly, just trying to keep that out of it and just listen to other people and I think anyone at the Thackeray is like this but I think there are quite a few people who wouldn't want to do that. That's definitely been the problem with museums in the past. 

Sara: Well, because it's easier not to, isn't it? 

Amelia Silver: You know, you're opening yourself up to criticism and understandably people don't like that but why? Like, you know, I don't know, there's no harm done. 

Meg: Amelia, before we get onto our last few questions, I just wanted to ask what's your favourite object in the museum? 

Sara: Yes. 

Amelia Silver: Oh God. 

Meg: Is it the butt-plug? 

Amelia Silver: No. That's not in the collection, we've not (mw 32.47) that one. 

Sara: That makes me want to ask is it on loan? 

Amelia Silver: No, it was bought. It's from LoveHoney. 

Sara: Okay, right. 

Amelia Silver: Not sponsored. 

Sara: Shout out to LoveHoney. 

Amelia Silver: I think my favourite item is probably the Lord Anal dilator. 

Meg: Go on. 

Amelia Silver: It's not used anymore, but it would have been used to look for-, actually I don't know what it would have been used for. I think it was used to look for piles or something like that, or haemorrhoids, in the anus. But, it just looks exactly like a butt-plug, hence why it's in Private Parts in more ways than one. 

Meg: Amazing. 

Sara: Absolutely brilliant, never has a better answer been given. 

Meg: So, at the end of every episode we ask our guests the same three questions. So, the first one is what's been your favourite day at work? 

Amelia Silver: My favourite day at work was probably the day that myself and Bobby went off into town and we bought loads of objects that look like butt-plugs and dildos and bumholes. 

Sara: Where was the most surprising shop that you went to? 

Amelia Silver: Got some great stuff in PoundLand. 

Meg: Did you? 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Meg: They sell butt-plugs in Poundland? 

Amelia Silver: Not butt-plugs, just things that look like them, so got, like, a dog toy that looks a bit like a ridged butt-plug. All kinds of stuff, that was a good day, and people probably heard little snippets of our conversations, like, 'No, I don't think that's buttpluggy enough. Oh yes, that looks a bit anussy. Yes, let's get that one.' 

Meg: That's amazing. 

Sara: Absolutely brilliant, that's so funny. I never thought that on this podcast we would be doing such an anus-centric episode. 

Meg: It's one of your favourite things isn't it? 

Sara: What, anuses? 

Meg: Yes. 

Amelia Silver: There was a programme on channel four about it, like, know your poo. They don't use that word. 

Sara: Yes, I do like that. 

Meg: Like, the Bristol Stool Chart. 

Sara: It's important though. 

Amelia Silver: Yes. 

Sara: Go on. 

Amelia Silver: Right, so mine is-, 

Meg: We're going to transition from poo into food seamlessly. 

Sara: Well, it's a two parter, so the first one is, from everything that we talked about today what would be your take away snippet for our listeners? And, what is your favourite take away? 

Amelia Silver: Take away would be come to the Thackeray, we have more than just butt-plugs but we do have some butt-plugs as well. 

Sara: Amazing. 

Meg: Perfect, and then food. What's your favourite take away? 

Amelia Silver: My favourite take away? I think my favourite take away is just a plain, old Chinese. 

Meg: Is it? 

Amelia Silver: Yes, I like a chicken chow mein. 

Meg: Are there any specific Chinese that would like to give a shout out to? 

Amelia Silver: Well, I've not actually tried any in Leeds yet, but the ones back home in Leicester are pretty decent. One round the corner, I think it's called like China Red or something, Birstall Leicester. Try it out. 

Meg: We've talked about Wen's (ph 35.47) before which is in the top end of town which is really good for Chinese, recommend. 

Sara: Yes, it's my shout out before. 

Amelia Silver: Wen's. 

Meg: Amelia thank you so much for coming on and talking so much about bums and sex toys and butt-plugs and everything. 

Amelia Silver: And, disabilities. 

Meg: Yes, disability museums. 

Sara: Disability plus butt-plugs. 

Amelia Silver: Well, thanks for having me. 

Sara: Well done Amelia. 

Meg: Well done Amelia. 

Sara: What was your favourite bit Meg? 

Meg: My favourite thing was I found it really funny when she said about like what her best day was and it was, like, going to Poundland to look for things that look a bit like sex toys, that was funny. And, just, kind of, sums up what working in museums is like. 

Sara: It's a riot everyday. 

Meg: But, then also I learnt a lot that I didn't know before so like, she was talking about that person who co-curated the exhibition who has HIV which is undetectable but he still can't get life insurance. There are lots of things, like, stuff we didn't record that we were talking about around that I just didn't really know. What was your favourite bit Sara? 

Sara: She made a really astute point about worrying as to whether she was disabled enough to, like, do the job and to be representative and work in that environment. And, I just thought that's bonkers, isn't it? You have all of these things that you worry about and then you will then have to consider, well am I even valid in this space? What space am I valid in? And, yes I thought that was quite thought provoking. Also, can I just say, shout out to my nana who I don't think will be listening, in fact I hope she's not listening to this because we've talked a lot about butt-plugs and stuff. But, I had her Christmas cake for my breakfast that day, do you remember? 

Meg: You did. 

Sara: Yes, and it was actually so delicious, like she sent me some up to Leeds and when we first met Amelia I was just, like, stuffing my face with Christmas cake and it was really good. 

Meg: It really surprises me that you like Christmas cake. 

Sara: God, I love it so much. I texted my nana afterwards to be like, 'That was really delicious.' She was like, 'I'm glad you like it, I made it with condensation milk.' 

Meg: Condensation milk, oh my god, that's incredible, and kind of gross when you think about it but I know that's not what she meant. 

Sara: It was really cute. 

Meg: That's wonderful. 

Sara: Anyway, we hope you enjoy the episode. Transcript is on the website if you want those. Big thanks to Tim Bentley who did our theme music for us and to Alex Finney who did our music. 

Meg: Please like, subscribe, rate us, tell your friends. 

Sara: Also, it's worth reminding everyone they get a badge if they review us. 

Meg: they do, the post is causing me a few issues in that I've not made it to the post office, so i will do that. In fact, by the time this goes out maybe they'll all be there. 

Sara: I've noticed that we've got a few really cute reviews recently and people haven't let me know so that I can't send them a badge, you know. 

Meg: what you going to do? 

Sara: Get your badge, gang. Okay, thank you for listening, have great time, see you next episode. 

Meg: Bye. 

Sara: Bye.