We sure need plants

A big ol' love letter to plants, this one. Dried ones especially. And our first returning guest!

Clare Brown of S2 E7 fame is back to tell us all about herbaria. Herbarium? Herbariums. Dried plant specimens, stored in our collection at Leeds Discovery Centre. Why should we collect them? How do we dry them? Stick your nose in a female plant, and what does it smell like?

Big thanks to Clare, and big thanks to you for listening. If you liked the episode, listen, subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual podcast suspects.

Transcript

oderator: Do you ever get a really good (mw 00.02)? 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator: Sometimes you've forgotten for a while. 

Moderator 2: Oxygen is just absolutely mad, isn't it? 

Moderator: Welcome, to The Museums and That Podcast, where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara from Leeds Museums and Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. 

Moderator 2: Sara, sorry we will get into this, but me and Sara are ordering takeaway for lunch, for the office. 

Moderator: Yes we are, absolutely fantastic. Hello. 

Moderator 2: Hello, how are you? 

Moderator: I'm good, how are you? 

Moderator 2: Yes, good thank you. What have you been doing recently? 

Moderator: I've got one best thing. I drove on the motorway. 

Moderator 2: Congratulations, how was it? 

Moderator: Yes, it was actually really fantastic. Basically I've been scared, I've got a driving licence, obviously I'm not going to be illegally driving on the motorway. I've been driving for ten years and I didn't drive for a long time and I've just had this thing in my mind about driving on a motorway and getting on a slip road. I just thought I had to go to Bakewell for a meeting and I thought, 'I've just got to go on the motorway and I did.' And it was fine, and I was on the motorway and I was like pepping myself up, talking to myself on it. As I was driving I was like, 'Meg, look what you're doing.' Then I did it again yesterday. 

Moderator 2: That's excellent, I'm very pleased. 

Moderator: I got to the Northampton Services and I thought, 'Meg, no one has ever been this excited to be in Northampton.' 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator: Sorry, if there is anyone listening from Northampton, I've never been actually other than at the services, I'm sure you're very lovely. 

Moderator 2: Any museums in Northampton? 

Moderator: I don't know, but it really confuses me because why is Northampton called Northampton because it's not in the north? 

Moderator 2: Tell you what bothers me about Northampton? 

Moderator: Go on. 

Moderator 2: It's like north and then Ampton. So, actually is it North-Ampton? 

Moderator: Or is it North Hampton? Or is it Nort Hampton? 

Moderator 2: Yes, literally. For anyone from Northampton can you confirm or deny? 

Moderator: Also sorry, whilst we're here. 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator: Can we give a shout out to that postcard? 

Moderator 2: My goodness, yes. 

Moderator: We got a postcard. We received a postcard from Benjamin Franklin House in London from a lovely listener called Jessica, hi Jessica. 

Moderator 2: Shout Jessica. 

Moderator: It was just such a treat to receive something in the post. We never get bored of it, because I think at the end of the last series or in one of them, we were like, 'Listeners send us postcards.' A couple of my friends have sent me postcards, which isn't the same thing. But shout out to all the (inaudible 02.35), you know who you are, who sent me a photo. But getting a postcard from someone that you've never met before is such a thrill. 

Moderator 2: Isn't it? It's wonderful. 

Moderator: It was such a nice one, wasn't it? 

Moderator 2: Yes, it was. 

Moderator: Thank you so much Jessica. 

Moderator 2: It was really lovely, it's now pinned to the desk with a Museums and That Badge, which actually I am sending to you also. 

Moderator: Yes, so basically if you want a badge, send us a postcard and we'll give you a badge. 

Moderator 2: Yes, I'll do that today. 

Moderator: Yes. Go on, what was the best thing from your week, or last week? 

Moderator 2: Actually, it wasn't going to be my best thing, it was going to be my worse thing, but which is ironic. I also kind of have two, so my worst thing was I ordered a salad and I ordered it specifically because I wanted pickled pink onions and it came with red onion. Isn't that the worst? But my best thing was, I had a couple of late nights working recently and had to go to Burger King for dinner, at about 10 o'clock. There was this family in the service station, and I think service stations are fascinating. The guy sat down, didn't think anything of it, he had a black-, I did think a bit of it. He had a black shirt on but with a white collar and cuffs for a start, where do you buy those? Then a black sweater vest over the top of it, fine. Stood up, joggers. It was a look-, 

Moderator: I've literally just done two snots by the way, I just did a little (mw 03.52) out of my nose. 

Moderator 2: I had to send a picture to Meg, because I just could not compute the situation. 

Moderator: I admire it. 

Moderator 2: Maybe they'd been for a long journey, I don't know it was a proper Zoom outfit. Business on top. 

Moderator: Party downstairs. 

Moderator 2: Party downstairs, I mean, super relaxed party. 

Moderator: I love that. 

Moderator 2: But what are we doing today, what are we doing this week? 

Moderator: Today, this week, we are interviewing a repeat guest. But the best one. 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator: As you know, we love all our guests but we're interviewing Clare Brown who is one of the curators of natural sciences at These Museums and Galleries and she came on, I think it was series two. 

Moderator 2: Throes of lockdown. 

Moderator: Last episode of series two and she talked about birds and bird skins and taxidermy and decolonising the natural science collection. But she did it on Zoom, and I don't know if you're aware of this everyone but Sara and I don't like Zoom, we talk about it all the time. She's so good in person that we were like, 'Let's get her back on.' We're talking to her today about herbarium. 

Moderator 2: Herbarium. 

Moderator: Dried plant specimens. It's pretty exciting. 

Moderator 2: Yes, I love Claire. For my birthday, she was like, 'What are you doing for your birthday?' I was like, 'Actually, I'd really like to come around your house and have lobster and champagne.' I would like to invite myself to your house. 

Moderator: She did, she was like, yes that's fine. She did. Anyway, enjoy. This is Clare Brown's second episode of Museums and That, everyone, have a great time. 

Moderator: Put it on for everyone to hear it. 

Clare Brown: What me depressing my mug, my farty mug. 

Moderator: It could be coffee, they can't see. It could be you just farting into a mike for like 20 seconds. 

Clare Brown: I don't think it's going to do it, it has given up. No, that is amazing. 

Moderator: Are you feeling better? 

Clare Brown: I have to warn everybody, so then I can drink coffee at the same time. 

Moderator: Yes, I have to turn Sara's mike down. 

Moderator 2: I'm real shouter. 

Clare Brown: Really? 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Clare Brown: You don't come across like that normally. 

Moderator: I think you're one of the loudest people that I know. 

Moderator 2: Interesting. Clare. 

Clare Brown: Yes Meg. 

Moderator 2: You are our first returning guest. 

Clare Brown: Do you know what? Someone told me that and I'm totally honoured and can't quite believe it. I didn't get any sleep last night. 

Moderator 2: Did you not? 

Clare Brown: No, I was like, 'Oh my God, what am I going to say?' 

Moderator 2: No you didn't. 

Clare Brown: I'm over egging it, but yes, it was really-, I'm very honoured, thank you ladies. 

Moderator 2: Anytime. 

Clare Brown: It's lovely to be here. 

Moderator 2: Also, just for the listeners benefit, we've had chaos this morning because we were supposed to start this about two hours ago. 

Moderator: Yes. 

Moderator 2: And then we couldn't find the memory card, from a potential human error. 

Moderator: Definite human error. 

Moderator 2: Sent Sara off to Ground Point to go and find a memory card. Got it from Asda, did you? 

Moderator: I did, Asda Living. 

Moderator 2: Fantastic. 

Moderator: Yes, in the entertainment section. 

Moderator 2: And anyway, we're here now. 

Clare Brown: I went through every camera I could find in the museum for an SD card for you. 

Moderator 2: Did you actually? 

Clare Brown: Yes, I did. 

Moderator 2: Is that what you were doing? 

Clare Brown: Yes, I care about you. 

Moderator 2: I care about you. Did you bring your Viennese Whirls in? 

Clare Brown: No, because I was worried about the crumbs as I was eating and talking and you might judge me on the amount of crumbs you got all over myself. 

Moderator 2: I wouldn't worry. Did you know that Viennese Whirls are Clare's favourite? 

Moderator: It's an excellent choice, I can't knock it at all. 

Moderator 2: What's your top Mr Kipling? 

Moderator: I do like a Fondant Fancy. 

Moderator 2: You would. 

Clare Brown: They were lower down on my list. 

Moderator 2: I think a Viennese Whirl is probably top for me too. Yours is a Battenburg isn't it? 

Moderator: Shout out to Battenburg. No, number one is Cherry Bakewell's, number two Battenburg, number three Country Slice. 

Moderator 2: You rotter. 

Moderator: Then the Angel Slice, I like the slice. 

Moderator 2: Do you? 

Moderator: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Interesting, I like that there's two in there. 

Moderator: Yes, I do hate the amount of packaging. 

Moderator 2: Anyway, what did you come on to talk about today Clare? 

Clare Brown: Herbaria. 

Moderator 2: Herbaria. 

Moderator: Herbaria. 

Moderator 2: Wait, is it Herbaria? 

Clare Brown: So, Herbaria is the plural and Herbarium is the singular. 

Moderator 2: Herbarium's. 

Clare Brown: You can if you like, I don't think anyone is judging you. 

Moderator: I am. 

Moderator 2: The first question we ask everyone to answer, which you've kind of already done anyway, but can you do it again but maybe in song. 

Clare Brown: I thought you were going to ask me to do it in more of a professional way. 

Moderator 2: No, come on. Clare Brown, who the flip are you? 

Clare Brown: I am the curator, or one of the curators of natural science for Leeds Museums, it cut out as I was singing it. 

Moderator 2: It cut out so no one knows what museum you're from. 

Clare Brown: Leeds. 

Moderator 2: Anyway, Herbarium. 

Clare Brown: Herbaria, yes. 

Moderator 2: Herbarium's, yes. What are they? 

Clare Brown: Well, dried plants. I don't know how to go further. 

Moderator 2: What are they for? 

Clare Brown: You can get them pickled, so you can get the big seed. 

Moderator 2: Pickled dried plants seems a bit at odds. 

Clare Brown: Yes, not dried, just pickled. The big fleshy. Literally fleshy fruit, you can't really dry it because it doesn't go flat particularly easily. 

Moderator 2: Like a cactus and berries? 

Clare Brown: Yes, although I have seen-, 

Moderator 2: Stuff with berries? 

Clare Brown: Yes, things like cocoa pods and pineapples and stuff, they're all pickled. 

Moderator 2: Have we got any? 

Clare Brown: We don't, we have some cocoa pods but other than that, no. Most of us have is flat, dried plants. 

Moderator 2: Are they really big? 

Clare Brown: Cocoa pods? About the size of an avocado, a bit bigger than that, not particularly big. You just want to go around the-, 

Moderator 2: Store. 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator 2: I know you want to talk about Herbarium, but tell everyone about stall two. 

Clare Brown: So, lots of museums have them, it's just everything in alcohol or formaldehyde, or some sort of liquid preservative. 

Moderator: It's jars of, like, snakes. 

Clare Brown: Yes, so anything you want to preserve the internal organs of. 

Moderator: Why, why would you want to do that? 

Clare Brown: Well because of the anatomy of them. I mean, if you think about a piece of taxidermy, it's 5% of the animal, because it's only its skin and its fur or feathers, or something. 

Moderator: Is it because, and I am going to link this back to herbaria soon, but why would you want to preserve the internal organs of a snake? What are you going to do with it? Is the idea that you would then scan the snake if you ever want to know how a real life snake is working? 

Clare Brown: Yes, I think that's about the question. 

Moderator 2: It is, but I've never heard anyone describe it as how a real life snake is working. The inner workings of a real life snake. 

Moderator: Well, I don't know how it bloody works, do you? 

Moderator 2: No, (TC 00:10:00) but I did listen to a really good podcast episode once on snake venom. 

Clare Brown: Back in the day, we didn't have scans and things, there were no x rays, so you'd have, sort of, dissected things in alcohol so you could look at the anatomy of them, physically. It was teaching, but also maybe you'd got lots of birds from an expedition and you didn't' have time to dissect them all in the field right then and there, you would preserve them and then you could dissect them when you got home, and stuff like that. But also, we have huge numbers of things like fish and spiders and slugs, are quite difficult to stuff. A spider will just dry out. 

Moderator 2: I'd like to direct listeners to our first ever episode of Museums and That with Rebecca (mw 10.38), when we discussed this. Put slugs in ethanol, and Julia Roberts. 

Moderator: Yes, very interesting, same thing. 

Moderator 2: In that same vein, plants, why do we need to dry them, why do we need to preserve plants? 

Clare Brown: They're not inferior to animals, we need plants more than we need animals. 

Moderator 2: I'd argue that they were. 

Moderator: God really, do you think? 

Clare Brown: You can't do the opposite of inferior, yes that one, and argue that they were superior. I'd argue that they're not inferior. 

Moderator: Wait, do you think that plants are more important than animals? 

Clare Brown: Yes, of course. 

Moderator: Why? 

Clare Brown: We don't need animals, but we sure need plants. 

Moderator: Do we not need animals? 

Clare Brown: No. 

Moderator: Do we not? 

Clare Brown: No, I don't think so. 

Moderator 2: Have you ever met a vegan? 

Moderator: I know, we don't need to eat them, but I thought that it was the whole circle of life. 

Clare Brown: There are animals I would argue for, like the dung beetle and flies that clear up all the dead bodies and everything like that. 

Moderator: Yes, shout out to flies. 

Clare Brown: But on the whole and in general, we could probably manage without most animals. But we couldn't manage without plants. 

Moderator: What's the most important plant? I'm really consciously trying to say plant, not plant, because I got called out this morning for saying, 'Plant.' 

Clare Brown: I can't answer that question for you, I've no idea. 

Moderator: What's your favourite plant? Plant? 

Clare Brown: Good grief, I like a ginkgo. 

Moderator: Go on. 

Clare Brown: I do like a ginkgo, because they are ancient and you can just tell that by looking at their leaves. They've got this amazing old leaf structure and clearly it evolved long before anything else. They're still around and we still plant them, although have you ever smelled a female ginkgo? 

Moderator: Hang on, I didn't know that you can get females and males, but go on. 

Clare Brown: Yes, a lot of plants, almost all plants are male and female. 

Moderator 2: Because of the circle of life. 

Clare Brown: Because the females produce seeds and the males pollinate the seeds. It's not true actually, loads of plants are both, but-, 

Moderator 2: What? 

Clare Brown: But you do get male and female plants quite often. 

Moderator 2: Wait, so what does a female ginkgo smell like? 

Clare Brown: I don't know, it's supposed to be rank, look it up. When you're buying ginkgo to plant in your garden, they say, 'For goodness sake make sure you don't buy a stinky one.' 

Moderator: Have we got one at (mw 12.46)? 

Moderator 2: We have, I don't know whether that's male or female, how would we test such a thing? 

Moderator: Give it a sniff. 

Clare Brown: Smell it. You'd know, I think, by now. 

Moderator: How do you test it though? 

Clare Brown: Well, the females will have flowers and the males won't. 

Moderator: I don't know if the ginkgo-, I don't think it has flowers at (mw 13.01). What's your favourite plant Meg? 

Moderator 2: Great question, it changes all the time. 

Moderator: That does not surprise me. 

Moderator 2: I like Hydrangea a lot, hydrangea is the one that I always come back to. 

Clare Brown: I can't stand hydrangea. 

Moderator 2: Right, well they can's stand you. 

Clare Brown: I just don't like them. 

Moderator 2: Why? 

Clare Brown: Big blousy, flowery. I suppose you're much, much younger than me, so when I was little all the old ladies in the swimming pool wore hydrangea hats. I sort of associated them with cold, freezing-, 

Moderator 2: Women. 

Clare Brown: No, not women, the women were fine, it was the swimming pool that was the problem. 

Moderator 2: Plasters and tiles. 

Clare Brown: Verruca socks and stuff. 

Moderator 2: I also would like to shout out to Icelandic poppies which are delicious and Ranunculus, because it sounds like ridiculous. What's your favourite? 

Moderator: I love a fern, I like a bracken fern. I know, but they've been forever, been here forever. I like evolutionary stasis. 

Moderator 2: Yes, amazing. 

Moderator: I know science. 

Clare Brown: They hit on such a good set up, such a good body plan, such a good idea, millions of years ago, that they never needed to change it, crocodiles are the same. 

Moderator 2: With herbarium. 

Moderator: Are you just going to say all three each time? 

Moderator 2: With plant specimens, do you ever-, when did people start collecting them, firstly? 

Clare Brown: I don't know, I mean probably the Egyptians, or even before that, you know, people were collecting all sorts of things, for all sorts of reasons, you'd bring in dead plants. 

Moderator 2: What's the oldest one that we've got in our collection, do you know? 

Clare Brown: We've got the Reverend William Wood's collection, and I think he died in about 1808 and so he was collecting the second half of the 18th century. He was a minister at Mill Hill Chapel. 

Moderator 2: I don't know Mill Hill Chapel, but I do know Mill Hill Kebabs. 

Clare Brown: It's probably near Mill Hill Chapel. 

Moderator 2: It will be on Mill Hill. 

Clare Brown: The main square, Park Square-, not Park Square, what's the other one? 

Moderator 2: City Square, yes. 

Clare Brown: With the Black Prince, yes. 

Moderator 2: What can you tell from, like, the way that they were collected then to what we would collect now? Can you tell the difference? Say he collected a hydrangea, would that hydrangea be different to me collecting one now, can you tell differences between them? 

Clare Brown: Yes, I mean, Hydrangeas are a garden plant, so I think he's be more interested in what was growing wild in Leeds rather than what was (mw 15.20). But also, I don't think hydrangeas are British, so he may not have even had hydrangeas in Leeds. Because the classic time when everyone was going out to China and collecting beautiful exotic plants to bring back to British gardens was the 19th century. Victorians did it all the time. Like, they got hold of rhododendron ponticum and let it go and now it has taken over Wales and stuff. 

Moderator 2: Sorry, I didn't even remotely think about this, but is there an empire element to this? 

Clare Brown: Yes, well China wasn't in the empire, but the empire sent back-, I mean they talk about the docks at Liverpool and Hull just groaning with produce and new animals and new plants from around the empire. A lot of your garden will be full of stuff that came via Empirical, empire roots. 

Moderator 2: This actually reminds me of Rosalyn's episode in season 5, episode 2 I'm going to say at the V&A when she was talking about the floral patterns on male suites are all linked to colonial countries. There was a big bringing over of flowers and plants. I can't remember it though. 

Moderator: Yes, it was a huge display of wealth, wasn't it? 

Clare Brown: Yes, and people constantly after the exotic. Like grey squirrels were introduced three times to try and get them, I think it was Woburn Abbey and they tried to introduce the grey squirrels just to make an exotic, beautiful thing in the garden, and they ended up being a massive pest. 

Moderator: Well then, would that be around the same-, this is a sweeping statement because I don't know. But around the same sort of time the rise of the guy that did the gardens. 

Clare Brown: Monty Don. 

Moderator: That guy, Monty Don, Capability Brown, but when gardening became really fashionable as well, because we were able to import all of these really exotic plants. 

Clare Brown: Yes, it all goes hand-in-hand. 

Moderator: That must've then had a massive impact on the natural wildlife because of how pollination works. 

Clare Brown: Yes, absolutely huge. They were looking specifically for things that would survive in this climate, because they knew they'd survive in Britain. So, they looked in the Himalayas and higher, colder places, which is where you get the rhododendron and stuff like that. Yes, it was all to decorate the gardens of the wealthy in Britain. 

Moderator 2: If we've got plants from this guy who died in 1808, how long do they last for? 

Clare Brown: Well, as long as you look after them properly, indefinitely, the idea is, that's my job. 

Moderator 2: How do you look after them? 

Clare Brown: Well, as long as you get them dry then that stops any rot, then we keep them out of the light, and out of the way of pests, and out of the way of the biggest cause of damage to museum collections, people. Curators. It's literally curators that cause the most damage. 

Moderator 2: Is it? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Why, just from their dirty little mits? 

Clare Brown: Well, because they just handle them more than anyone else, yes. As long as you keep them flat and carefully, then they should last forever. All their DNA, all the pollution data all locked up inside them. That's the thing I find fascinating, and that's the thing I spoke to-, we did a little session the other day at the museum and loads of people were really fascinated. The big question is, why do you have them and I was like, 'Well, I have an easy answer to this, because of climate change.' And now we can go back and see, from these specimens that we have that are 200 years old, how much has changed and that is incredible. 

Moderator: But how? 

Clare Brown: Because we still have them, because we look after them really carefully. 

Moderator: Wait, but like how can you tell about climate change? 

Clare Brown: So, a lot of will only grow in a particular temperature range, or particular soil or particular climate and as soon as that changes, then they will no longer grow there. You can look-, I mean, we were talking the other day about the fact that you should go and buy up the Yorkshire Wolds to make vineyards, because in 2050, the place to grow really good wine will be the Yorkshire Wolds. So, everything that could survive in Northern France at the moment, would then survive in Northern England. 

Moderator 2: I went to a Yorkshire Vineyard. 

Clare Brown: Yes, it's starting. So, as the climate changes, then you will see an absolute change in the flora and fauna of Leeds inevitably. So, if you can say a particular plant grew here 200 years ago, then you can come to conclusions about the climate in Leeds 200 years ago. 

Moderator 2: Do we know anything about that, do we know anything about the climate in Leeds? 

Clare Brown: It was a lot of the research that has been done has been looking at pollution mainly and where it was clogging up their little stomata, the little holes in their leaves and stuff. 

Moderator 2: You know how Kat came on and we were talking to her about human remains and museum collections, people come and they can tell things about a human and what they had eaten and how old they were based on the data that's stored within their teeth. 

Clare Brown: Yes, isotopes in the teeth, how they grew. 

Moderator 2: Yes, so can you do that kind of analysis on a plant? 

Clare Brown: Yes, absolutely, yes. 

Moderator: On their teeth? 

Moderator 2: On their teeth? A plant (inaudible 20.16) 

Moderator: Yes, Venus fly traps? 

Clare Brown: Yes, well it's all locked in there, because they will have grown in a particular soil that has the isotopes in them. So, it would've dragged it up into the structure of the plant, it's all sitting there. 

Moderator: How do you get it out? With an injection, a needle, a sucky little syringe. 

Clare Brown: We did have a lovely bit of research on our hop collection, they did have to go through many hoops to do this, but they got a hole punch and punched our hops with a hole punch so that you could then put it through something called pyrolysis. 

Moderator: Chemical testing? 

Clare Brown: Yes, well, they burned it and look at the residue. 

Moderator 2: Why do they have to burn it? 

Clare Brown: It's just the way that you can extract the exact-, without moisture and without everything else, you can look at what's produced, the dust at the end. It's a good way of analysing dust. 

Moderator 2: How do you feel about that? Someone literally setting fire to bits of your collection? 

Clare Brown: Well, they did jump through lots of hoops, so they have to propose it. 

Moderator: That is partly what the collection is for, I mean, setting it on fire is drastic, but research isn't it? 

Clare Brown: They didn't just take a sheet and get a lighter, it was controlled. 

Moderator: I suppose in that vein as well then, you have obviously that data that sits within the plants, but what about the social conditions of the time? So, some specimens will be wrapped in newspapers of the era which are quite telling. 

Moderator 2: Yes, that's my best thing and when you showed me it for the first time. 

Clare Brown: Those 1950s newspapers, oh my goodness. 

Moderator 2: Is that the Ida Roper collection? 

Clare Brown: Yes-, no I think it was one of them, it was either Irene (mw 21.42), or Ida Roper had not-, so when you collect a specimen, you would dry it out as much as you can, but in whatever paper you have available, so often newspaper. Then you neatly put it on a beautiful clean sheet and write it all up. So, if you've not quite got round to it, then we've still got the residue of some of that. It is amazing. 

Moderator 2: You can see the cinema listings for the picture house and the Armley Cinema that's not there anymore, that we have at Leeds Industrial Museum now. 

Moderator: I think the irony as well of the adverts, which will be around-, because it would be mid-century, so it would be women doing household chores and then you've got these female botanists going, 'Nah, just need my paper for some ferns.' 

Moderator 2: Yes, tell us about them. 

Moderator: Poisonous Ivy. 

Moderator 2: Ida Roper. 

Clare Brown: Yes, so Ida Roper was an amazing naturalist who mainly worked in Bristol. I'm not quite sure why her beautiful collection of dry plants ended up at the University of Leeds, but she donated it all. It was bequeathed to Leeds and her stuff is incredible because she really took care laying it out. The details on the specimens are beautiful and she's written it very carefully. She was also a really active member of the botanical exchange club of Great Britain. 

Moderator: Sounds like such a wonderful club to be part of doesn't it? 

Clare Brown: And if you've got a few of a particular specimen and you want someone else's specimens then you swap them around and send them to people. 

Moderator: Like an exchange club. 

Clare Brown: They've got a little stamp and everything. 

Moderator 2: Are they still going? 

Clare Brown: I don't know. Yes maybe, I'm not sure. 

Moderator 2: Let's find out and sign us up. 

Clare Brown: So Ida Roper beautiful specimens, absolutely hundreds and, you know, it's such a privilege to be able to look after them and use them. And then Irene Manton was a professor at Leeds after the war 1945 to 1969 I think she was there. And she was just absolutely, apparently completely hard core. Someone I know, knew her and she was just, no nonsense, you know, ran the department absolutely brilliantly, made Leeds the scientific university that it is and I've never seen before, sorry I don't know why I'm laughing because I don't think you'll get this joke. But I've never seen chromosome numbers written on herbarium sheets before and I was totally impressed with that. Yes. 

Moderator: I mean some botanists will put down what they ate, the sandwich they ate, which I think is just wonderful. But then she did kind of blow them all out of the water writing chromosome's down. 

Moderator 2: Is she the one that would wear the same jumper everyday? 

Clare Brown: She did, she wore the same outfit everyday. She couldn't care less and brilliantly I think in the sixties, Vogue featured a thing on women scientists and she's in Vogue in her beige polo I think, she thought it was hilarious. 

Moderator 2: The irony of Irene. I like the name Irene, I think that's a really nice name. 

Moderator: Beautiful isn't it? 

Clare Brown: I think a lot of people just call her Irene but I think it's Irene. 

Moderator: So back to herbariums, there's another one, there's another good botanist I want to talk about. I already know about it because I did my research. But a guy, that Meg has written here, the guy with the tongue. I think they maybe all had tongues. 

Moderator 2: Tell us about the guy with the tongue. 

Moderator: Hart's tongue fern. 

Moderator 2: No as in, (talking over each other 24.50). Did you see what I did there? No I was trying to get tongue in. 

Moderator: Oh my god. The jokes are lost aren't they? 

Moderator 2: Sorry I'm-, 

Moderator: It was a bad joke though so fair enough. 

Moderator 2: It was cheesy. That was on you. But do you remember that time that I told you (talking over each other 25.04) 

Moderator: I do, I couldn't actually believe it, I was up a ladder and I nearly fell off the ladder. 

Moderator 2: Clare was, like, 'What's this one? I don't know what that one is.' And I was like, 'I'll stop you right there Clare, that's a stag's horn fern.' I still think about that. 

Moderator: Yes I do occasionally. 

Moderator 2: Anyway the guy with the tongue, go on. 

Moderator: J G Wilkinson? 

Clare Brown: Yes I'm trying to think. I think it's John Grimshaw, was it John Grimshaw? 

Moderator: John Grimshaw Wilkinson. 

Moderator 2: What's the best name in your collection? 

Clare Brown: The best name? I don't know. I've no idea. There's a lot. Gellibrand is quite good. 

Moderator 2: Gellibrand? 

Clare Brown: Gellibrand, but he's called something like John, George, Robert, Philip Gellibrand or something but he was a purveyor of Australian wildlife. He wasn't my favourite person. 

Moderator 2: Sorry, tongue. Wilkinson. 

Clare Brown: Okay so J G Wilkinson was a botanist who tragically in his early twenties became so ill that he went blind. I don't know how, what disease he had, but he was fascinated by plants and knew all about them. And he was a great painter before then and he wanted to continue this, but obviously it's quite tricky to identify plants if you can't see very well and so he ended up learning, teaching himself how to identify plants by using his tongue to identify them which I think should come with a disclaimer because I don't think you should do that. 

Moderator: Absolutely not, we are not advocating that. 

Moderator 2: Please lick plants responsibly. Mind out for nettles. 

Clare Brown: Not at all. Yes. 

Moderator: Also don't ever go near the ones at the edge because that's where the dog's wee'd. 

Clare Brown: Yes I teach my kids that when we're picking blackberries. Yes go for the ones that dogs can't reach. Anyway. 

Moderator 2: He did it with his tongue? 

Clare Brown: Yes, which is incredibly impressive because his collection is huge and varied so he knew what all the different species were. Maybe even by taste a bit. They are stunning. 

Moderator: Wait I assumed it was by taste, do you mean, like, he felt them with his tongue? 

Clare Brown: I imagine. You'd be able to tell the difference, yes. 

Moderator: So it'd be texture and taste? But didn't he say he used it like a microscope? So it was, like, minuscule. 

Moderator 2: Yes because you can detect, like, a hair in your mouth. If you've got a hair in your mouth everybody knows about it. But if you'd got a hair in your hand you wouldn't so, your tongue is incredibly sensitive. ting it. 

Clare Brown: So maybe, yes, it's a good way of put 

Moderator: How long ago was this? 

Clare Brown: Early 1900's. 

Moderator 2: Do you know if any of them were friends? Like, they all went out for tea. 

Clare Brown: I don't think so. They would have probably known, everyone would have known of Irene Manton because she was an amazing botanist. So there were lots of, I mean back in the day there was, used to have botanical clubs in pubs. So every Sunday you'd go to the pub with the latest specimen that you'd found but that's sort of seventeenth, eighteenth century type stuff. And it was considered a reasonable past time for a woman, you know, it was feminine, it was fine to do it. You couldn't do physics but you can do botany that's fine. 

Moderator: You can do plant science. 

Moderator 2: Plant science. You know you said earlier about they will last forever if you look after them properly, does that mean as museums we mainly collect and store them and look after them for research and longevity? I've never known how to say that word well, by the way. 

Clare Brown: Longevity? 

Moderator 2: Longevity. So we can't display them because of the light? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator 2: (talking over each other 28.11) display them and show people them. 

Clare Brown: So I think a lot of people only really interact with museums through exhibitions so you're used to going in and seeing things behind glass, but we have about one% on display and 99% in store. So it is tricky for herbarium sheets because they are so delicate, you can imagine the nice, beautiful dried petal, the light can be very damaging for them so we don't put them on display very often. So we use them for science and education. We get them out for school groups and all sorts of things. I did a project a few years ago called museum to meadow where we tried to go back to the spots where the plants were collected to see if they were still there, so we had a nettle from 200 years ago. 

Moderator 2: Were they still there? 

Clare Brown: Yes the nettles were, yes. 

Moderator: They're hardy as, aren't they? Make good tea. 

Moderator 2: Do they actually? 

Moderator: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Just a normal, like a stinging nettle. 

Moderator: Yes they're really full of vitamins. They're better for you than say spinach, like in terms of the nutritional value. 

Moderator 2: Really? 

Clare Brown: They put them in cheese don't they? you can get nettle cheese. Cornish Yarg. 

Moderator: Oh really, I thought Wensley Dale or maybe they all do it. Yes, just in some hot water. Just collect some nettles, obviously not the ones near the dog wee. 

Moderator 2: With gloves on. 

Moderator: Yes. 

Moderator 2: I hate getting stung by nettles, so annoying. 

Moderator: Just talking about that with going back to where the plants were, what sort of thing would be collecting now? And would we still be doing it in the same way? Because obviously we have cameras and phones and things and I suppose you lose that tactile nature of it but is there value in still doing it the same way? 

Clare Brown: Yes, completely, so a lot of people ask me, when we're collecting natural history, well what's the point? We have got phones so we can record every nth degree of it, what's the point? But we talked about it earlier you can't collect DNA on a phone, it's the DNA and the isotopes pollution data, all sorts of things all locked up in it. And also (TC 00:30:00) it's absolute proof that something was there and if you ever need to revisit it, I mean for example pipistrelle bats they discovered there were two species of pipistrelle bats so anything recorded before they discovered this, they couldn't tell you which species it was unless you went to a museum collection. So it's just worth having the actual physical thing. Yes but we do still collect because obviously, sounds stupid but, you know, the present is going to be the past so we don't want a hole in it. We want to make sure that we've still got a good record of everything that's going on in the world. 

Moderator: Well you are letting people punch holes in-, 

Clare Brown: In a careful, considered, controlled manner. 

Moderator: For the good of science. 

Clare Brown: For the good of everybody. 

Moderator: Fair play. Also talking of science I heard a rumour that some institutions hold questionable plant specimens, i.e. not legal ones, i.e. drugs. Can we talk about that? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator: Great. 

Clare Brown: Yes it's true. 

Moderator: So obviously, you know, plants come in all shapes and sizes and for all reasons and some of them happen to be illegal. 

Clare Brown: Psychoactive? 

Moderator: Yes, substances, so how does, like a museum organisation go about that? Surely there are some legal-, 

Clare Brown: Well you've touched on a hornets nest there. 

Moderator: Oh have I? A veritable hornets nest? 

Clare Brown: Yes, don't stir the pot. Don't shake the can, whatever it is, the can of worms. So cannabis particularly is a good one to talk about because it just used to grow everywhere. It was a wild flower. 

Moderator 2: In Leeds? 

Clare Brown: Yes, everywhere. It's just a wild weed. Literally. 

Moderator 2: Clare just rolled her eyes. 

Clare Brown: Anyway so if you were a botanist 100 years ago, 150 years ago you would put it in your collection and then it ended up in, you know, thousands of sheets of paper and would have been transferred to a museum and if a university collection got transferred to a museum then they would be supplying the museum with drugs because cannabis on the misuse of drugs act is just illegal. So if you own it then you're breaking the law. 

Moderator: But even it's just like the, it's just the base cannabis, there's no nuance within that so, no, the actual illegal chemical part of it that creates the drug effects. 

Clare Brown: So the actual act just says, it lists all the different drugs that are under the act and when it comes to cannabis it just says, cannabis. It doesn't say anything else, it doesn't say anything else, it doesn't even say a species. 

Moderator: Well having it, so if it's in a collection and it's really old, so if it's like 200 years old-, 

Clare Brown: It's still cannabis, it's still illegal. 

Moderator: Would it still be psychoactive? 

Clare Brown: Or is it half-life? 

Moderator: Or is it, because there's half-lives of stuff isn't there? 

Clare Brown: Yes so the active chemical in cannabis is THC and I think it has a half-life of about a year. So no. And also you wouldn't want to go anywhere near it. I mean quite a lot of Leed's collections are covered in mercuric chloride, so any museum with cannabis in the collection could be covered in that kind of stuff. It's something you would never go anywhere near. I wouldn't even, like, dare. I wash my hands carefully after I've handled them. 

Moderator 2: Do you have to put gloves on? 

Clare Brown: So this is a debate because you've had Erin on right? 

Moderator 2: Yes, Erin's paper innit? 

Clare Brown: Gloves. That's a very scientific, paper innit. 

Moderator 2: Yes, because gloves can tear. 

Clare Brown: Yes, exactly and it's the same with herbarium because they're basically sheets of paper. So because of that we don't wear gloves unless, if I know that someone's given a collection that's covered in mercuric chloride then I will say, because you can, it soaks up through your fingers, so you do have to really know what you're doing. 

Moderator 2: What'll happen to your fingers? 

Clare Brown: Well nothing. It's just that mercury is quite a difficult poison for your body to deal with. 

Moderator 2: Would you feel sick? 

Clare Brown: It's associated with brain, I can't think of it now. 

Moderator 2: Death? 

Clare Brown: Well maybe brain death. It affects your brain badly it's-, 

Moderator: Does it poison your brain? 

Clare Brown: It is poisonous so mercury is used a lot in millinery so that's where you get mad hatter from. It was over time, it's really detrimental to the body, particularly the brain. 

Moderator: So don't touch anything? 

Clare Brown: Well you have to know what you're doing. I mean quite a lot of our collection doesn't have mercury all over it but there are other, you know, chemicals that they were using to stop the pests eating it. So yes, I wouldn't go anywhere near a sheet of museum cannabis. 

Moderator: Noted. It's a lot of effort isn't it if you want cannabis? (talking over each other 34.23) 

Clare Brown: Yes, surely there are other ways. I wouldn't know, but surely there are other ways. 

Moderator: No, no, no one would know. 

Moderator 2: Clare is there anything that you want to tell people or share about herbaria before we get on to our final questions? 

Clare Brown: Well I would, we have about 250,000 sheets of herbarium in store and I wish people knew about it more because it's-, 

Moderator 2: Wow, there you go. 

Clare Brown: Thank you because it's fab. I mean the collections amazing. You could do incredible things with it. I think the fact that it doesn't look like it did in life really affects quite a lot of interactions with it. You can get beautiful wax models of it, you know, which people do produce for museums but it's not quite the same as (mw 35.07). It's not the real thing. 

Moderator: Digital. 

Clare Brown: Well we did take photos of it and then make wallpaper out of it and then stick it all over our café so that is fantastic. 

Moderator: So do people just email you and then you can just kind of show them? 

Clare Brown: Yes. Absolutely. 

Moderator: Guys, email Clare. 

Clare Brown: Yes, I'd love to. 

Moderator: Put a little joke in there as well, she'll like that. 

Clare Brown: I do like a joke. Plant orientated. 

Moderator: Do you know any? 

Clare Brown: Sure. But I can't think of any. Do you know any? Has anyone got any plant jokes? Seaweed ones isn't there. 

Moderator: Oh yes. Seaweed. Is seaweed a plant? Yes of course it is. 

Clare Brown: Well it's an algae actually. 

Moderator: Different from a plant? 

Moderator 2: We've not got the time. 

Clare Brown: Yes we could go into that. Also you need to ask me about what the rarest plant in the collection is. 

Moderator: Oh go on. 

Clare Brown: Well we've got quite a few specimens of Ladies Slipper Orchids. 

Moderator 2: What are they? What is it? 

Clare Brown: So it's a British orchid and there's only one plant left in the whole of Britain. 

Moderator 2: Where? 

Clare Brown: Well it's a secret and honestly when it flowers they put a 24 hour guard on it. 

Moderator 2: Is that at Kew Gardens? 

Clare Brown: No. 

Moderator 2: Where is it? 

Moderator: It's a secret. 

Clare Brown: I'm not telling you. 

Moderator 2: Can you tell me? 

Clare Brown: No. 

Moderator: Can you tell me? I'll beat that out. 

Clare Brown: I know approximately where it is, but there's no way on earth am I going to tell you where it is. 

Moderator: Okay but I'll beat that out. Can you tell me? 

Clare Brown: No. It's like, really important that that plant is protected. 

Moderator: You are a nightmare. 

Moderator 2: No I can't be trusted. 

Clare Brown: But the reason it's only got one left is because of orchid delirium. Orchid, something like that, orchid delirium. Yes, orchid delirium. 

Moderator 2: What's that? 

Clare Brown: So it was a nineteenth century craze where everyone went nuts for orchids, so everyone just went and collected every last orchid they could find. Because there's loads of different orchids, there's thousands of different orchids in the world and quite a few different ones in Britain. And people went nuts for them and just collected them by the troves. From the empire again but from Britain as well. 

Moderator 2: And they've collected all of them except one? 

Clare Brown: Exactly which that is why there are still some nutcases out there who would go and collect it. 

Moderator: Where do they grow? In the water? 

Clare Brown: No they grow on hillsides I think. 

Moderator: Okay so I can tell you in part, because it's on the internet, it's in Yorkshire. 

Clare Brown: I wasn't even going to say that. 

Moderator: It's on the internet. 

Clare Brown: Yes as long as it's on the internet that's fine. Not very far from where we're sitting. 

Moderator: Is it? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator: Wow. 

Clare Brown: I mean in the scheme of things it's closer than Newcastle. 

Moderator: Is it at The Arium? 

Clare Brown: No I don't think it's at The Arium. 

Moderator 2: Is it at The Arium? 

Clare Brown: No of course it's not at The Arium. It's in the wild. It's an actual wild specimen. They have reintroduced more because it's not endangered in Europe, it's only, it got down to one plant in this country. 

Moderator 2: Can I just tell everyone listening, if you're ever in Leeds, go to The Arium because it's the best. 

Clare Brown: Do you reckon? 

Moderator 2: I literally love The Arium so much. It's not even, it's not particularly big. It's just so great, I just love it. 

Moderator: I disagree, I would go to Courtyard Planters. 

Clare Brown: You're a Courtyard Planter? 

Moderator: Yes 

Moderator 2: Okay, Clare that was-, 

Clare Brown: The main things I wanted to get off my chest. 

Moderator 2: Can you show me, can we go downstairs? 

Clare Brown: Lady Slipper Orchids? 

Moderator 2: I want to see that and I want to see the Coco Pod. 

Clare Brown: Yes. Sure. 

Moderator: Every time you say that, I'm like, I could really go for some coco pops. 

Moderator 2: I love coco pops. I used to have them when I got home from school. So good, you have to have super cold milk though otherwise weird. 

Moderator: I think, I don't know if I'm going to be able to say this, but just a personal view, the sugar tax has ruined lots of cereals. 

Moderator 2: Oh absolutely, hasn't it? 

Moderator: Yes, horrendous. 

Moderator 2: Coco pops have suffered from it. 

Moderator: They have, absolutely. 

Moderator 2: Okay Clare we're on to the final three questions and you've already answered them. 

Clare Brown: Okay. 

Moderator 2: But we're going to do it again. What has been your favourite day of work? 

Clare Brown: Okay, it was a few years ago now but we had a group of kids in to look at the taxidermy collection. So we did a session looking at various different types of animal and everybody was visually impaired. And a ten year old boy at the end of it was holding a duck and he said, 'Oh I didn't realise that ducks only had two legs.' And I just couldn't believe that, you know, that we could be so valuable to that kid. Poor ten year old, like, you know, what a different life experience they've had to think that ducks have four legs and we could just offer that tiny bit of insight into the world for him. And I was quite moved by that one, so that was my best day at work. 

Moderator 2: That's really nice. 

Moderator: I think ducks with four legs would be good though because I like their feet.Anyway. That's a lovely story and yes now I ask silly questions, so from everything we've talked about today Clare, what would be the takeaway for our listeners? And then what is literally your second favourite takeaway? 

Clare Brown: So the takeaway for listeners, the one thing people should think about when they think about herbaria is just the amount of temporal data, get that. So well we've got spacial data all the time so you can go round the world and just choose whatever you want to study, fine, anywhere in the world. (TC 00:40:00) So that's spacial. Temporal is through time, so you can't go back ten years and see what was growing in Leeds and study it unless you come to Leed's museums and galleries and look at our collections. And we've got 200 years of amazing Leed's history particularly pollution data and stuff. Innit. So although it's a slightly secret collection in that we don't put it on display very often, it's just so full of wonderful data, you know, we could all benefit from it. 

Moderator 2: Once more for the people at the back, that's Leed's Discovery Centre which is where it all is and you can email Clare which is, clare.brown@leeds.gov.uk and you can email Clare. 

Clare Brown: Yes. I'd love to hear from you if you're interested in Herbarium definitely, yes. 

Moderator 2: Say hi from me. 

Clare Brown: I will do. 

Moderator: Also actually that's such a good shout because that's such a good day out isn't it? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator 2: You get to see the store at the Discovery Centre which no one knows you can actually come and see. 

Clare Brown: Designed for people to walk round. 

Moderator: It's a rare gem. 

Clare Brown: The best room in Leeds someone said. Was it to you? I think said it was the best room in Leeds. 

Moderator 2: Best room in Leeds? 

Moderator: That's a good quote isn't it, maybe we should put that on the building. 

Moderator 2: Best room in Leeds. It is the best room in Leeds. 

Moderator: Is it better than a tiled hall? 

Clare Brown: You can't take cake into the store but we can offer cake outside of the store. 

Moderator 2: If you come me and Sara will take you out for a piece of cake to apologise. 

Clare Brown: For not having cake in the store? I think we have actually got cake in the store. 

Moderator 2: Yes. Probably do, yes. 

Clare Brown: In the collection. 

Moderator 2: Clare what's your favourite takeaway? Second favourite. 

Moderator: You're not allowed to say rice style. 

Clare Brown: I love rice style however it has been supplanted by my favourite ever takeaway which is Yuzu street food. 

Moderator 2: Yuzu street food? 

Clare Brown: You've just got a new one in Leeds. It's just moved to Leeds. I recommend it highly. I've no idea but they've said they will deliver. Yuzu, oh my goodness me. Their Tofu steamed bao buns are incredible. 

Moderator 2: New Briggate, okay. 

Moderator: Oh this looks really good. 

Moderator 2: I like the design of their menu. Fantastic. Oh vegan chicken and tofu. I like that, you know. 

Clare Brown: Do you know what? It's just as good as the meat. We order always vegan because there's no point in ordering the meat because there's no additional taste. 

Moderator 2: Wait, do they do takeaway? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Shall we get one? 

Clare Brown: Yes. 

Moderator: What for lunch? Right now? 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator: Alright then. 

Moderator 2: Have you got lunch with you? 

Clare Brown: No. 

Moderator: I've got a really depressing sandwich. Do you know, I did that thing where I sliced the bread too thin at one end. 

Clare Brown: Oh no. 

Moderator: I hate it, so I would absolutely love to order Yuzu. 

Moderator 2: Oh my god shall we do that? I (talking over each other 42.29) 

Clare Brown: Lizzy said she was going to have a dreadful lunch as well. 

Moderator 2: Oh my god, let's get one. 

Moderator: No not click and collect, absolutely not walk. Do we want to wrap up this episode? 

Moderator 2: Yes sorry. Thank you so much for coming-, 

Clare Brown: In a bao bun. 

Moderator 2: Oh nice. 

Clare Brown: Or some vine leaves. They're also good. 

Moderator: See what you did there. Nice. 

Moderator 2: Clare, thank you for coming on again. 

Clare Brown: Thank you so much for having me. I really feel like I should thank you. 

Moderator 2: Love you. 

Moderator: Hi Meg, we're back. 

Moderator 2: It is us, we're back. We haven't yet had our takeaway but-, what was annoying about that, can I just say, is that we were, like, yes let's get it but you know when you don't want to do it? 

Moderator: Yes I know and I've since had actually my laptops turned itself off so I've got a lot of instant messages with people's orders on and now they're all gone. 

Moderator 2: Yes I don't want to do it. I'm going to have to. 

Moderator: Yes it's fine. We've kind of, we've literally made a song and dance out of it, so we're going to have to. 

Moderator 2: It's the little things. Anyway what was your best thing from that? 

Moderator: Oh I love the herbarium collection. It's really hard and a little cheat was I kind of knew stuff already because I had to do a little pretend scientist session last week. But I think my best learn is consistently the whole holding data in plants, i.e. pollution and climate change and understanding how things have gone before and what's there now. I find that incredibly fascinating and I think that's the thing that's super useful and relevant now. So yes, it's totally worthwhile. What about you? What's your best learn? 

Moderator 2: Mine actually, I learnt a lot in that. Mine is actually that there's only one orchid left in the UK and it's in Yorkshire. 

Moderator: Of course it is. 

Moderator 2: And I want to know where it is. 

Moderator: We can go and find it. 

Moderator 2: The thing is, I've got that thing where you know, when there's like a button and it's, like, don't press the button or don't fiddle with that and then you just have, like, this mad impulse to do it. That's how I think I would feel if I saw that orchid. I would be like, don't pick the flowers. 

Moderator: You know what's just reminded me actually my neighbour works for the National Park. Maybe she knows where it is. 

Moderator 2: Yes. Let's go and see her. 

Moderator: I'm going to ask Caroline. It's not what you know, it's who you know and where to find the orchid. 

Moderator 2: And what takeaway you're having at lunch. 

Moderator: Absolutely. 

Moderator 2: Thank you so much for listening. We need some more thanks please from, oh god, I'll talk about this next episode. Remind me, okay my thing, next episode I've got to tell you about what me and Tim Bentley are doing. 

Moderator: Okay, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Moderator 2: Shout out to Timmy Bentley for doing our theme tune and for Alfie who did our lovely cover artwork. Transcript on the website. Subscribe. Tell your mates. Send us a postcard. 

Moderator: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Going to chip in here at any point? Or are you just going to stare at me? 

Moderator: I'm just staring at you. I'm quite hungry. Yes. 

Moderator 2: Well that will be it for now, I reckon. 

Moderator: Well I hope everybody's having a lovely time. Whatever you're doing, wherever you are in the world. 

Moderator 2: Give yourself a pat on the back. Have a bath. 

Moderator: Be very safe. Have a lovely time. 

Moderator 2: Love you. Bye. 

Moderator: Oh yes, love you. Bye.