Museums n'That
Museums n'That
It can't just be at the International Slavery Museum
For the final episode in this series we nipped back down the canal to (potentially the second greatest city in the world) Liverpool.
Where we met Ranmalie! Dr Ranmalie Jayawardana is the Community Participation Lead at the International Slavery Museum and Maritime Museum at National Museums Liverpool. She's currently working on the Waterfront Transformation Project and is doing lots of very important things to make sure local communities feel connected to and represented in the museum.
We also hear quite a bit about Ranmalie's sausage sandwich.
Huge thanks to all of our guests and listeners this series! If you've enjoyed listening in, then subscribe on all the usual podcast suspects and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. You're the best.
Moderator 2: My saliva glands hurt, I think I've eaten too many Percy Pigs.
Moderator 1: Do you get that?
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Can you hear my voice? Like, I need to swallow.
Moderator 2: I've got like a pip.
Moderator 1: From watermelon?
Moderator 2: Yes mate.
Moderator 1: Yes because you've been eating watermelon and I've just been shoving Percy Pigs down my throat.
Moderator 2: Watermelon is so gorgeous.
Moderator 1: Right here we are, what are we doing?
Moderator 2: Here we bloody go, should we crack on?
Moderator 1: Intro.
Moderator 2: Right.
Moderator 1: Off you go.
Moderator 2: Welcome Museums n'That podcast, where each episode we have a chin wag and serve the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your host, Meg and Sara, from Leeds Museums & Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know.
Moderator 1: Okay, hi Meg.
Moderator 2: Hello for the final time Sara.
Moderator 1: What ever?
Moderator 2: Maybe. No I don't think so.
Moderator 1: I was like a little cow in the background.
Moderator 2: Did it sound like a cow?
Moderator 1: Yes a little bit, I like cows.
Moderator 2: My favourite thing that the Queen has done in her entire reign-,
Moderator 1: Oh yes I've seen this.
Moderator 2: Is when she gets excited about cows and they come through, and then she points to Philip and she's like, 'Look Philip, cows.'
Moderator 1: Cows.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: It is really exciting.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: I saw a sheep this morning asleep on the top of a pile of mud, I thought that was pretty good.
Moderator 2: Comfy was it?
Moderator 1: Looks pretty comfy on his pile of mud.
Moderator 2: Go on last time because it's the last episode in the series, what's been happening in your week?
Moderator 1: Okay, so this week we went to Liverpool.
Moderator 2: Liverpool.
Moderator 1: Liverpool, we had a really lovely day, it was beautiful sunshine but we went to the Museum of Liverpool, very good, karaoke booth.
Moderator 2: That was the best thing from that day?
Moderator 1: Yes, that was really good.
Moderator 2: Go on, tell everyone about what it is.
Moderator 1: So there's a big section obviously in Liverpool's history and current history around music.
Moderator 2: (talking over each other 01.42) I'm sorry.
Moderator 1: You know you're not supposed to do that? You're supposed to do little sips because otherwise it just goes straight to the bladder, and you know how much you need a wee.
Moderator 2: Every time, I'm literally just trying to hydrate Sara.
Moderator 1: Well hydrate slowly. So in the Museum of Liverpool, there is a lovely section about musical history, and past and present, which is great, and there is a full blown karaoke booth in there, and it's really excellent, and we tried it except we didn't actually sing because we were too nervous. Brilliant, it was so good.
Moderator 2: I thought it was a mirage.
Moderator 1: It was so good.
Moderator 2: It was like, 'Is anyone else seeing this in front of our eyes?' Because we were like, we hit the jackpot. It's amazing.
Moderator 1: Yes really good.
Moderator 2: Karaoke in a museum.
Moderator 1: Well done Museum of Liverpool.
Moderator 2: Yes, had a really good time there.
Moderator 1: Yes, so that was my thing, what was yours?
Moderator 2: Seeds playing havoc. My thing is that I went to a wedding.
Moderator 1: Number four?
Moderator 2: Wedding number three out of eight this year, and saw the seating plan for the wedding breakfast, and sat next to me was a man called Harry Style, and that was my thing, I text Sara straight away, I was like, 'I cannot believe it.' I didn't bring it up, the fact that he was called Harry Style, it was a lovely wedding but that had really made it for me.
Moderator 1: Brilliant.
Moderator 2: Also I went to a conference and I met someone, shout out to Kirsty Earley, in the flesh who I've ever seen online, and isn't that funny when that happens?
Moderator 1: I know it's weird, it's like you're meeting again for the-, well you obviously are meeting for the first time, but you know what I mean, like, 'Oh hello.' Friends in real life, nice.
Moderator 2: Yes. Anyway, go on, who have we go on? Last guest.
Moderator 1: We've got a good one, we've kind of stalked followed her from Leeds because she was in Leeds and now she's in Liverpool.
Moderator 2: So it's Ranmalie Jayawardana-, actually no, Dr Ranmalie Jayawardana, and she is the community-,
Moderator 1: Participation lead.
Moderator 2: Yes, for the Maritime Museum and the Slavery Museum.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: The national museums, Liverpool. And she went up to you at a preview, didn't she?
Moderator 1: Oh you were so cross about that.
Moderator 2: Mate, obviously I didn't bring this up with her.
Moderator 1: Right, so we went to the preview, the Vagina Museum did a little stint up North at Thackeray, and we went to that opening and she'd organised it basically. And she came up to me and she was like, 'Oh my god, are you Sara from Museums n'That podcast?' And Meg's face, oh my god.
Moderator 2: No but I didn't know that that happened, and Sara came over to me and was just like, 'Someone has just come up to me and said it.' And I was like, 'Mate, I'm so jealous.'
Moderator 1: Yes. So turns out I'm the best.
Moderator 2: No.
Moderator 1: So from that anyway we had a little chat.
Moderator 2: Also Sara's on the party planning committee.
Moderator 1: Oh for gods sake, stop going on about this, no one else knows about this, it's an internal staff party.
Moderator 2: And Sara got asked to be on the party planning.
Moderator 1: By our director and Meg didn't, and she's also furious about this.
Moderator 2: Yes, don't care, I'm not going.
Moderator 1: Yes she's not going out of protest, even though she definitely will go because she can't miss out on a party.
Moderator 2: Do we need to say anything to everyone before we finish for the series?
Moderator 1: We need to let everybody know that if they really enjoyed the series, then they need to like, and review, and subscribe and do all that stuff.
Moderator 2: Yes, give us a nice tasty little review, yes that would be nice.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Moderator 2: Yes. Anyway, back to it, this is Dr Ranmalie Jayawardana episode of Museums n'That, enjoy. Okay, so Ranmalie, the first question that we have for you, for everyone, is who the flip are you?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I am Dr Ranmalie Jayawardana, and I'm the community participation lead at the International Slavery Museum and the Maritime Museum here in Liverpool.
Moderator 2: Fantastic.
Moderator 1: It's got a lot of words.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It is a lot of words.
Moderator 2: Also, are the first doctor we've had on?
Moderator 1: I think we've had Rebecca Wade.
Moderator 2: Oh yes, and Pat.
Moderator 1: You seem so disappointed.
Moderator 2: Yes I know, I was just really excited.
Moderator 1: Are the best doctor we've had on?
Moderator 2: Yes, what are you a doctor of?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Anthropology.
Moderator 1: That's very cool actually.
Moderator 2: That is cool, yes. In my head though I have to work it out, that means human-,
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It's humans, it's not bugs nor Egypt. Social anthropology, it's the study of people, and culture, and society, my first lecturer actually used to refer to it as the study of food, sex and gossip.
Moderator 2: That's really good, isn't it? Where did you do it?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I studied at Queens University, Belfast.
Moderator 2: Did you?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I did, yes, I was in Northern Ireland for seven years, that's why I've got this really strong Northern Irish accent that I can't shake.
Moderator 2: I've literally just been to Northern Ireland for the first ever time.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It's the best place in the world, I know you keep saying Leeds is the greatest city in the world, but honestly Belfast, like, the greatest city in the world.
Moderator 1: What's so good about it?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Everything, like honestly, it's the city that made me, like, I moved when I was eighteen and I had never visited before, I'd never been to the North, never been to the Republic before either, and just turned up on a whim and ended up absolutely loving it and stayed for so long. I, kind of, feel sorry for everyone else who didn't have my university experience, who didn't go to university in Belfast because, like, it's such a great city, there is so much going on. But also as an English student going over, you're not just going and living by yourself for the first time, you're not just going to university and studying, you're also immersing yourself in this entire socio-political landscape that in GB, we're just so ignorant of and we're kept so blind to. And so you're learning and you're meeting all these people, and they're also doing the same thing, I had lots of friends who had never met anyone from the other community before going to university and, like, having the chance to mix. And also, you know, at the time it was really a cheap place to live, so you could just work a couple of shifts a week in a bar and then the rest of the time, all my friends were actors and musicians, and they'd be writing and doing gigs, and stuff like that. It was just the best.
Moderator 2: Did you eat lots of Taytos?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I did eat a lot of Taytos?
Moderator 2: what was your favourite flavour?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I think cheese and onion is the classic, isn't it?
Moderator 2: Yes it's the classic.
Moderator 1: Anyway enough about Ireland.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Never enough about Ireland, but yes.
Moderator 1: So how did you come to work in museums and heritage?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Quite a long, convoluted story.
Moderator 2: What's your journey?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: My journey.
Moderator 2: Tell us everything.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: So because I studied in Belfast, I ended up specialising in post-conflict reconciliation, and I did my research in Sri Lanka, and I was working around security and storytelling in a post-conflict state, so, how marginalised communities essentially share their experiences of violence, without exposing themselves to further violence. And I worked with lots of NGOs across the country, lots of really small grassroots organisations, and that's what I'd always thought I'd do, I thought I'd work for an NGO, I thought I'd work for the third sector. And then got to the end of my PHD and felt like that was going to be the beginning of my career, because I'd been at school my whole life, essentially, up to that point, and I thought, like, 'This is it, this is going to be the beginning.' But when it actually came, I was like it actually feels like the end of that chapter, I've been doing this for ten years, I'd always been, sort of, working and volunteering for charities. And I did a lot of soul searching after I graduated and was like well what is it that I really want to do? What do I always come back to? And the answer was museums. I've always loved going to museums and galleries, I was really fortunate, my parents always took my to museums and galleries whenever they could growing up, but I generally, until my late twenties, didn't realise that you could have a job working in a museum.
Moderator 1: Snap.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Like, it just had never occurred to me that that was something that a person could do. I always knew I loved the spaces, and I always knew that, you know, I wanted to engage with them for the rest of my life but I just didn't realise that you could be paid for working in them. So I, sort of, switched tracks and was trying to get an entry level job in museums and I couldn't for a long time.
Moderator 1: (talking over each other 09.27).
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Oh it's a great sector. But I ended up volunteering because I was able to, I was very fortunate, I moved back in with my Dad, so I was able to volunteer whilst I was looking for work, and I ended up volunteering for five different museums across London.
Moderator 1: Which ones?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Shout out to Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology, the Grant Museum of Zoology and Comparative Anatomy, the Horniman Museum and Gardens, also volunteered for the Science Museum Group at Blythe House on their one collection decant project (TC 00:10:00), how many is that? Oh yes I did an exhibition at Dulwich Picture Gallery, I also did a day at St John Soane's Museum but didn't really follow through with that one.
Moderator 1: And remember that's the joy of volunteering.
Moderator 2: You've ticked off a lot of them there, I'm just like, 'Oh god I need to really pack up my CV.'
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Well it was really useful obviously in hindsight, but, you know, at the time, it was really difficult, I was essentially working full time for museums without being paid for it for eight months. And then finally got an entry level job, I was an explainer at the Science Museum, which is a joke because I don't know anything about science, I dropped science after GCSE, but really enjoyed that job for the whole four months I had it before lockdown kicked and I was put on furlough straight away. So I spent a lot of time during furlough, sort of, doing what I could to keep that momentum going, I was reaching out to and being involved in different museum networks, like Museum Detox, the network for people of colour working museums. And also I was lucky enough to get a position Space Invaders reverse feminist mentorship programme, and that was really useful at that time because obviously there was a lot of reevaluating I was doing, I was like, 'Oh I made this big change, was it the right thing to do?' So that was really useful, and yes just, sort of, kept learning up during that time. And then I was really fortunate to get a job at the Thackeray Museum of Medicine in Leeds as their community co-producer, and my first day on site was actually 17th May, the day that everything opened up again for the first time, museums were open again, and it was also the first day that Thackery opened after its massive £4 million refurbishment. So it was really exciting, I got to establish the community programme there and the community space before moving across eventually National Museums Liverpool, and here we are today.
Moderator 1: Gosh that's a whirlwind, isn't it?
Moderator 2: Down the canal.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It was quite long winded wasn't it?
Moderator 1: No not at all.
Moderator 2: You've done so many things. Just quickly, so you said you didn't know anything about science, but how do you be an explainer and not know anything about science?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Blag it.
Moderator 2: How did you blag it?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Honestly, whenever a child asked me a question I didn't know the answer, I was like, 'That's a great question, I love the enthusiasm, why don't we find out the answer together?' And then I'd go and ask someone who would know.
Moderator 2: Yes.
Moderator 1: Oh my god that is so smart.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: That's what the interpretation is there for. I get really sick of, like, do you know what, I don't know anything, and people ask, 'What's in your museum?' Old stuff, some of it is dead.
Moderator 2: One of my greatest fears in life is being asked a question that I don't know the answer to.
Moderator 1: That's a lot of questions.
Moderator 2: No I know I just (talking over each other 12.37).
Moderator 1: I could have asked you a million questions on the way here that you wouldn't have known the answer to.
Moderator 2: Yes but it's you, it's fine. What I mean is if you're doing a talk and then there's a question and answer session, that's always the bit for me that I'm the most nervous about, someone asking you a question in front of a room full of people and me being like, 'Oh-,'
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I just say I don't know, like, I'm quite comfortable saying, 'I don't know but I'll find out.'
Moderator 2: Well I'm glad you think that because there might be a lot of I don't knows in this interview as well.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Yes that's fine.
Moderator 2: I have a sneaky suspicion that you know literally everything.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I love the enthusiasm, let's go find out together.
Moderator 2: Let's find out if that's true together.
Moderator 1: Right, so current job then, how long have you been here now?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Four months.
Moderator 1: Okay cool. So you know everything, so that's great.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: An oracle.
Moderator 1: What does your current job entail as community participation lead?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I am working on the water transformation project that's happening here at National Museums Liverpool. So that's a massive redevelopment project, and it has, sort of, four main sites of interest. So there's the big redevelopment at the International Slavery Museum and the Maritime Museum, which currently hold one building. There is the Canning Dock as well, which is, sort of, the area of public realm at the waterfront where there are two dry graving docks, and at the moment there's very limited interpretation, there's very limited objects on display there, so that whole area is going to be developed as well. The ground floor of the Museum of Liverpool, the global city gallery, is going to be redeveloped, as well as the smaller, sort of, dockside buildings that are dotted around the Albert Dock as well, they're all part of the redevelopment.
Moderator 1: You were just, like, 'Gah-,'
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I have never been more on the edge of the seat about, like, what was just about to come out of my mouth, and it was nothing, and that's fine.
Moderator 1: She was like, 'Yes I'm done,' but you were so surprised at yourself, that you were like, 'That's it, I have no more to say.'
Moderator 2: It was like you were so impressed that you had just done all of that, and you couldn't believe it.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It was like okay, and then talk about, like, ISM bit and then it was like, 'Oh god.' I didn't even answer your question, I've just told you about what the water transformation project is, I didn't even answer what I do as part of it.
Moderator 2: It's fine.
Moderator 1: You've got her delirious.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I know, sorry about this.
Moderator 1: No it's fine.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: So my role is to make sure that we're not doing any of this alone essentially. So the International Slavery Museum initially was just a gallery in the basement of the Maritime Museum, and it was through local activism that, sort of, really shone a lot around the importance of this story, of this narrative in Liverpool's history that showed the urgency that actually we don't need just a gallery, we need an entire museum dedicated to the international trade in enslaved Africans here in Liverpool. And so at the moment, the International Slavery Museum is one floor of the Hartley Pavilion, which holds both the Maritime Museum and International Slavery Museum. But the stories at the moment aren't very connected, and whilst all of that, sort of, drive came from Liverpool's black community to make sure that this story was really told with prominence and with vigour, when the museum actually was developed, it gotten taken over by museum professionals, as it would have done at the time. And so the story it tells is very much a story that curators and museum professionals have put together, not one that I suppose, like, resonated or came directly from those activists who called for the need in the first place. I think museums, and heritage in general, has come a long way since then, we understand the need to integrate voices along the entire process and not just have them there at the beginning or at the very end. And so with this redevelopment of the International Slavery Museum, my job is to make sure that everything we do is co-produced. So the International Slavery Museum is going to be expanded into the Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Building, so that's the first building that you come to when you come to the Albert Dock, it's, like, the very beautiful, grand one with the pillars at the front. That is owned by NML at the moment, by National Museums Liverpool, but, kind of, it sits empty, it's had a pop up exhibition in recently, there'll be a couple more coming, but up to now it's not really been used or integrated as part of the museum organisation. What we want to do is expand the International Slavery Museum into that building so it has its own front door to show its significance, its prominence, and that people can really feel that it's a gateway into that narrative and into that story.
Then the building that the Maritime Museum and the International Slavery Museum is in currently will be reconfigured, and there'll be, sort of, a walkway created between that Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Building and the building that currently holds the Maritime Museum and the International Slavery Museum. And what's important about the co-production element of it is, as I said, we don't actually know what stories we're going to be telling in those buildings, in those museums at the moment, all of that is going to come from conversations that we're having with community members, both locally and really hyper-locally here in Liverpool from the L8 community, but also across the Liverpool City region. And really importantly as well is that we're bringing in voices from across the nation because the trade in enslaved Africans shaped not only Liverpool but Britain as it is today, it also shaped the world that we live in today. So we're also going to be working with community partners from across the world to reimagine what this International Slavery Museum can do for us as a community, but what story we can tell with it and how we can, sort of, bring it back to that idea of activism, and campaigning, and a real campaign led museum as well, not a static one but the one that actually drives change from within.
Moderator 1: You said that you don't know what stories and what objects maybe there will be to tell within the reconfigured museum, how do you go about doing that with the groups that you work with now? Because you're in my head, your job would be going into work in the morning and then just going and sitting with a group of people from a certain community and then from another community, just all throughout the day and just talking about their lives, which sounds amazing but I feel like that's a fabricated thing in my head. How do you start something like that?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Well I'm very lucky because I'm not doing it alone, I've got an amazing team that work with me to produce the community participation, the co-production on this project. So yes a lot of work is reaching out to people in the local area, making partnerships across the UK and further afield, and talking to people about their experiences, their lived experience, their learnt experiences, but it also about, sort of, creating a strategy. We are also, you know, delivering a capital project, I'm an anthropologist, I love chatting to people, as much as I would like to sit around and talk to people all day, we do want to create a museum at the end of it. And so the way that we're doing it is, sort of, bringing people together by creating pathways that might resonate most strongly for them, and being like well your lead might be that you have a particular interest in history.' Or, 'Your lead (TC 00:20:00) might be that you are really passionate about education and teaching this history,' 'You might be someone who is from the L8 community who have been activists, and who have been personally invested in anti-racist campaigning here in the city.'
And so how do we invite people with their experience, their knowledge, in a place, in a way, that feels most comfortable and most suited to them to work with us on answering well what is the vision for this museum? What is the narrative? What is the big picture that we want to tell with it? I mean that's a pretty daunting task for anyone, but by creating, sort of, pathways in and really listening and understand what people's expertise is and what their passion is, and then creating a strategy from that to deliver a capital project, I think that's the most meaningful and the way forward with most momentum as well.
Moderator 1: I think going on from that because that's a huge remit, I'm just going to put it out there, it's a huge remit and an incredibly exciting, daunting, whatever, position to be in, but especially yourself as a person of colour, then working in an environment which wants to tell stories of other people of colour, how does your background and cultural reference points help, hinder, I don't know how you find it?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I mean it's a huge motivator, it's both the thing that, sort of, drives me to do the work that I work do and stops me enough to take account of the fact that not everyone that I work with is coming from the same reference points as me, I can't speak for every person of colour, I'm South Asian, I can't speak for Liverpool's black community. So I think having that awareness that I'm not represented in heritage spaces for the large part helps me not only push for better representation, but also makes me hyper aware of my position in that and how best I can support and platform other people to come along on that journey with me. I mean we talked earlier about how I came into museums, actually the, sort of, trigger point for it was a visit that I went on, as I said my parents were always really good at taking me to museums and galleries. I remember going with my Dad to an art gallery, we went on a tour, just a public tour, and I remember going into one of the galleries, and it was all paintings from Amsterdam and the Netherlands from around the 1600s and the 1700s. And the person leading the tour, a white guy, was, you know, talking about how there was a real resurgence of popularity of middle class people getting their portraits done, and it was because of this influx of wealth that was coming into the Netherlands at the time. And middle class people had never had the resources to do that before, so we have all of this amazing art that represents the middle classes, how wonderful and how representative of us.
And I remember just, like, looking around the room and me and my Dad were the only people of colour, and not a single person was batting an eyelid, and all I wanted to do was go like, 'But where did that money come from? Where did that influx of money come from?' And being Sri Lankan, I know that came from the colonisation of countries like Sri Lanka and other places around the world, and I remember just, like, leaving the gallery and just feeling like why is no one doing anything about it? Why is no one doing this work? And obviously that's what it felt like from the outside, I know that lots of people have been pushing for all of this work to happen, for this drive, the only reason why position at National Museums Liverpool exists is because of the work that's come before, but from the outside it really felt like no one was doing this. And so, you know, at the time I was like, 'Well I'll just do it then.'
Moderator 1: Someone's got to do it.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Exactly. And that was the real drive in me, sort of, doing this work and coming in to do community participation, and as I said, doing that work here, it has a real personal meaning and motivation behind it. My whole team, I'm so lucky, I work with a team of women of colour and, you know, we would support each other, and it's really meaningful for me just to be in a space where I'm not the only person trying to push this agenda forward, but actually we have a team of us, and we can support each other. And we can also, like, critique each other because that's also the scary thing, when you're a one person of colour working in a museum, you get asked these questions, I'm like, 'Well I can't answer for the whole global ethnic majority here, I'm just one girl.' And so yes, being part of this and having other people around to have these conversations with, and then taking them to community members, these questions that we're really working with internally and being like, 'Oh actually we don't have an answer, what do you think we should do?' And then, like, negotiating it, really interrogating it with other people, that's the real process of this work, and that's why it's meaningful because it's not that token-istic oh we've put together a plan and now we're taking that plan out to all the people of colour to come in and essentially rubber stamp the idea or the exhibition we've already put together. We're really challenging how we work here at National Museums Liverpool, we're actually creating a model of co-production that my time are testing, and we're working with the University of Leicester to create. Because the idea is we don't want the idea of co-production to just be with the International Slavery Museum, just be collections that historically people have thought are more connected with people of colour, than for example even the Maritime Museum that I also work across.
But how can we actually build this notion of co-production and collaborative working, not just with these very difficult histories, and invite people in to talk to us about very challenging things, and how we support them is a whole other question, how we support them through that process. But actually understanding that our roles in heritage isn't just to go about, you know, business as usual apart from these particularly tricky or colonial collections, but we actually need to be applying that same rigour, that same method across all of our sites and across all of our collections, and that's what we're trying to do here at National Museums Liverpool. We use the International Slavery Museum as the focus because it is always going to be I suppose the hardest subject, and if we can do it right at the International Slavery Museum, what I hope is that, you know, we can do it right across all of our sites, and that's what we're really hoping for at National Museums Liverpool.
Moderator 2: The pressure of that must be insane, and there must be an element of, I guess, the well-being aspects to your job must be incredibly challenging. You said then that you have people coming in and talking about really difficult things, how do you manage that?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It's difficult, like, it's difficult conversations and it's difficult to manage them, and it really is a case-by-case basis because some people will want to, they've been banging down the door to talk to us about this for years, and decades, and, you know, they haven't had the chance, we haven't had the pathways in, up until now, for people to be able to do that. So, really, actually having these conversations is really cathartic for them, whereas some people find even broaching the collection that we have and the themes that we work with really difficult. We're building ways that people can come and connect with us on their own terms. For example, if we were putting out commissions, we're not just talking about, you know, you have to talk about the impact of enslavement on Liverpool. You can bring whatever theme or whatever meaning that you can gain from that. And, you know, yesterday I was having a conversation with an artist and she was like, 'Well can I talk about black joy? Can we do a piece about Black Girl Magic?' And we were like, 'Absolutely, that actually ties into an exhibition that we're holding at the Walker Art Gallery in the future as well.'
So it's about meeting people, like, on their own terms, with the themes that they want to talk about, but obviously well-being is a huge part of that as well, and how we remunerate people, how we do that, whether we pay people, whether we have support in terms of counselling, do we have extra curricular activities that are just about joy and fun. And we're working through that strategy at the moment because we want to make sure that, you know, there's equality and parity across how we're engaging with all people, but the idea is that every single person will need their own bespoke way to be supported through this, but if we can offer a package, we can offer many different things to support them through the process and not just relying on one thing. For me, that's always going to be the best way forward.
Moderator 1: You're creating a whole new dialogue and communication method, and everything that went before has to by the wayside. And you're having difficult conversations with people, we keep saying the word difficult but it simplifies it far too much because actually it's people's cultures and their histories, and everything that goes along with that, and it's art, and it's family, and it's life, and it's food, it's an incredibly complex environment. And so then, like you were talking about packages whereby you can help support people more thoroughly, and they can almost pick and mix what exists for them, I don't know if that exists anywhere anyway, so, massive congratulations for being a part of that project, because I think it's super important, and it's exciting for me, a white middle-class woman, (TC 00:30:00) to know you, and to be a part of that wider journey, especially within the museum sector. I think it's just so incredibly important, and the work that you're doing here, and Amelle, will then inform the rest of the sector, and then beyond that as well. I think that's just incredible, and it's such a great time, I mean, it's long overdue, but it's a turning-point.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Thanks, I appreciate that.
Moderator 1: How does the work that you're doing here in Liverpool fit in with the sector generally? In my head, I'm like, 'God, that is, like, all the responsibility is on Liverpool and the International Slavery Museum and you guys to lead the way in doing this kind of work.' I just feel like there are a few museums that I can think of, or a few case studies, where museums haven't been anti-racist and they haven't been honest about their collections have come from, or they've taken, maybe, the wrong tone with talking about certain things, that feels like maybe going backwards, or the exact opposite of the work that you're trying to do here. How much do you feel that responsibility for the museum sector? Do you feel positive about the direction that it's going in?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I have to say, I don't feel that weight of responsibility, I genuinely don't, when I go about doing my job. It's genuinely a privilege to be able to do the work that I do. I'm really glad that there is so much space, and there is so much resource, and there is so much time, and there is so much energy here in Liverpool, to make sure that we are going about the redevelopment of the International Slavery Museum, the Maritime Museum, in the right way, and across the whole waterfront transformation project. I look at other museums, and other curators, and people doing amazing work, and I'm like, 'Oh my God, one day.' Like I say, from the outside, I felt like nothing was happening, and then, as soon as I first got into that Museum Detox email chain, it's just astounding, the amount of work people are doing, and it's incredible, the amount of coalition and allyship there is out there, and how much hard work, and thought, and real integrity, that goes into the work that people are doing across the country. I look at that, and I'm like, 'Well, if I can replicate just a percentage of that here in Liverpool, we'll be going in the right direction.' I very much look to other people, who are doing so much work across the country, to lead me and to keep myself motivated in this as well. What I'm really hoping is that we'll be able, over the next couple of years, to create a real-, even if it's like an informal network, people working around similar themes, across the country. We know that Glasgow, and Bristol, and London, and Birmingham are doing similar work, and with the same urgency. I think that National Museums is certainly a leader, but I think that we are all making our way through it together.
That's the same internationally, as well. We're working on a touring exhibition that's being led by the Smithsonian and by Brown University, called 'In Slavery's Wake,' which is in development. That's so exciting, because that's working with people who are really dedicated to this, and also working with people from around the world, who have histories and legacies of transatlantic slavery that are so deeply tied to Liverpool but we see them as so foreign. That exhibition will be collecting oral histories and then travelling around between sites in Washington DC, Brazil, Senegal, South Africa, and then here in Liverpool as well, and Belgium. To be part of that, it's so easy to be internal and just go through the day-to-day, and, 'We need to get this sorted,' and it's all administration, and, 'Yes, yes, it's a very exciting project, but really it's just a lot of admin and a lot of emails,' but then you look out at the amazing work that's being done, and the amazing partnerships that we're part of, and you think, 'Oh my God, it's actually happening.' Yes, there are a lot of naysayers, and there's a lot of criticism, there will be a lot of scepticism. That's why we need to make sure, here at the International Slavery Museum, we're as robust and watertight with our history as possible, because we know, we know that there will be scrutiny, but to just look and see these exemplars of great work, and be like, 'Actually, we're not alone in this at all,' what an absolute privilege to be able to do this work alongside all of these great thinkers and great activists, as well. It's amazing.
Moderator 1: I like what you said about being open to scrutiny. I think that's such a downfall, sometimes, of the sector, of being fearful of scrutiny on any level. I just think it's such an important space, like, if the sector wants to continue doing this work that is so important, then we need to be open to that, and we need to go, 'It's alright, we don't have all the answers, but by providing a platform,' and like you say, ways for people to come in, someone who didn't know about it, or hadn't heard about it, and then comes six months down the line and is like, 'Oh, I have something to add to this,' great, add it in. We want your voice. That is the whole part of the journey and the story. It keeps it alive, and that's brilliant. That's so exciting, that you have a touring exhibition that's going round the world.
Moderator 2: Are you going to get to go to all these places?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: No, I wish, but they were recruiting for a videographer to go between all of the sites and do the filming, and I was like, 'What an absolute dream job.'
Moderator 1: 'Can I just do a really small videography course?' Yes, that would be incredible. When's that exhibition?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It will be coming to Liverpool, we're hoping-, I can't say the year.
Moderator 1: 2027?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: 2027.
Moderator 2: 2027, oh my God, yes, were you going to say 2027?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Yes, yes. 2027, 2028. That's hopefully. We're the last ones to have the exhibition, as I say, because it's touring around all of these places, because we need to make space for our redevelopment. We'll be shutting doors for a couple of years, to transform the International Slavery Museum and the Maritime Museum. Yes, I'm hoping, once we open those doors, the exhibition will come through.
Moderator 1: Talking about the feeling that you get when you go into a museum or a gallery, or a cultural space, and how-,
Moderator 2: The vibe, as the young people say.
Moderator 1: If you will. Not me. You know, even more so in the International Slavery Museum, how you get across that balance, because you want it to be-, it might be a juxtaposition to say it, but a welcoming space. Having that balance of, 'This is a really important subject, and it's something that we want to be able to share with you. However, there are also aspects of joy to be had.' Getting that balance must be so hard.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Well, at the moment, we're working with the four pillars, I suppose, that have been created by our outgoing head of the International Slavery Museum, Richard Benjamin. They're pan-Africanist ideologies that we're using to both create the museum, the process, but also, we hope will be that vibe, at the end of it, as well.
Moderator 2: I've been watching Love Island, can you tell?
Moderator 1: Course she has.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: The first one's 'equava,' which is this idea of welcome. This idea of, 'How do you feel when you come into a space,' but not only just the space at the end of it, as I said, but, 'How do you feel when you're coming into the process?' That's a big part of my role, in creating co-production strategy, is, how do you invite people in without it being on your terms and your territory? There is always going to be hostility towards museums and heritage spaces, because I feel I never saw my own story represented growing up, and so, there is always going to be that resistance. How do you overcome that without losing any of that? We don't want people to come to us and be like, 'Oh, forgive and forget.' We need to know what we've done in the past, and the challenges that communities face in approaching us, for us to be able to actually do something meaningful, to interrogate that and to, hopefully, one day overcome it, but that is a step-by-step basis. The other pillars that we work with are 'ujamaa,' which is a sense of community and family-hood, which comes from Swahili, 'ubuntu,' which is an idea of humanity, so again this idea of how we can bring the sense of activism and addressing not only the legacies of transatlantic slavery, but contemporary forms of slavery, as well. The final pillar is 'uhuru,' which is about freedom. That was actually the pillar that we were talking about yesterday, with the artists, in terms of freedom and creativity, and the freedom to create and respond in a way that you want to respond to this history and this collection, not us telling you how to respond to it.
Moderator 1: Ranmalie, you're a listener, so you're aware of the upcoming questions we've got for you.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I am, big fan. It's really going to take a change of tone, isn't it?
Moderator 1: Ranmalie, what's been your favourite day of work?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Friday the 8th of April. I looked back.
Moderator 1: Did you really? In your calendar, and you were like, 'Yes, that was a good day?'
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I had a little scroll. I just wanted to make sure that I got what actually happened that day right in my head.
Moderator 2: That's so funny, by the way, no one's given us a date. 2022?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: 2022.
Moderator 2: Okay, great, yes.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I had just-, I was probably (TC 00:40:00) less than a month into my time here in Liverpool, and I went on gallery to observe one of our amazing, amazing, amazing facilitators, Lois, do a tour for a university group on a session called 'Understanding Transatlantic Slavery.' She's just phenomenal, and it was a real insight to how not only visitors experience the space and the collection, and obviously, its importance, but really understanding how my colleagues understand it, and how personal it is to them, and how, as we've spoken about before today, it's a manifesto that we're doing it. We're not just doing it because we can, and it pays the mortgage. It does, which is wonderful, but it means so much to everyone. Later that afternoon, our former curator for African collections took me to our storage site. He was also an anthropologist, and then he found out that I was an anthropologist, and it was just, like, 'Oh, come and see the globalisation collections.' He took me around and I was just so excited. I was, like, proper kid in a sweetshop.
Moderator 2: The magic of museums.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It was amazing to see all of the collections from across the world, but also, what really stuck with me was the real profound silence and sadness that I came away with, actually, as well. As much as I enjoyed it, and as much as I got a kick out of seeing all of these amazing, rich ethnographic material, it just lay there, at the moment, in this storage facility. Yes, I just remember being stood there with Zachary, and just the silence feeling so present, and just realising how much more work we have to do, and genuinely feeling just so excited to be here in Liverpool working on this project and being, like, 'Yes, I've got amazing colleagues alongside me.' As I mentioned, I've got an amazing team doing our community participation. It has to keep going. It can't just be at the International Slavery Museum. It has to be across all of our sites as well. Yes, that was my favourite day of work.
Moderator 1: Go on.
Moderator 2: My bit-, can I do my bit now? Yes?
Moderator 1: Yes, I actually said 'Go on,' that's what I meant. That's the kind invite you were waiting for. 'Do it.'
Moderator 2: From everything we've talked about, there's a lot, a snippet or a takeaway that you want our listeners to go away with, and then, on the back of that, what's your actual favourite, literal takeaway?
Moderator 1: Be honest, is that the thing you thought about the most?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Honestly, I've been sweating about it. No, I always knew what it was going to be. In terms of takeaway from the conversation, get involved. Just do it. I don't really know what else to say. I wouldn't be here, doing the work that I was doing, if it weren't for that, like, 'Well, maybe I could do it,' and then reaching out to people and volunteering, and amazing people supporting me and being like, 'Yes, absolutely, talk to this person, do some of this work,' and that's what has led me to be able to be in a position where I can actually-, that hostility that we talked about, and that frustration, that I can put it to use, and I can actually, every single day, go and chip away at that frustration that I felt that day in the gallery, because I'm doing something productive with it. I know it's really so hard to get into this sector, but in terms of just being involved, this museum opportunity, at Liverpool, to be involved in the entire redevelopment, the re-imagining of the entire waterfront, is such an exciting moment. I cannot say with more sincerity, we so desperately want to hear from you. If you have something that you want to share, even if you don't, if you want to just hear about it and you're like, 'Oh, that's a bit interesting,' learn, get in touch, get involved, because we do want to hear from you. We want to find a way that you can be involved in this project that is meaningful to you, and works for you and your commitments and your expertise. If there is anything that I can say to take away from this, it really is just, do it. Get in touch. If you want to get in touch with me-,
Moderator 1: Are you sponsored by Nike?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Oh, no. Yes, just get in touch. Don't think that, when you go into a museum space, if you see something that actually feels a bit jarring, tell someone about it. I am so sure people will want to have that conversation. Yes, it might be a bit tricky, and it might take a bit to actually get the thing changed, but actually, that person in the room, they want to talk to you, and they want to talk about the collection. They want to know how they can do better and how they can better serve you. That's what we're here for, at the end of the day. We're here to serve people and communities, and we can't do that if it's a one-way dialogue. Just shout back at us.
Moderator 1: Yes. I think there is a big fear about not saying something because you don't have the right words to say it. That's fine, just say you're not comfortable with it, and then, it's everyone else's job to work out a way to make it right. You don't have to be an expert to come in and challenge something. You just have to say, 'That's wrong.' That's an excellent takeaway, but now, onto more important takeaways. Sorry, I mean, not more important takeaways.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Sri Lankan, obviously. Yes, it just always has to be Sri Lankan. Specifically, I think, you can get a rice parcel, it's something you get in Sri Lanka, and it's literally just, like, a rice parcel, wrapped up in a banana leaf, and they just cook and you buy it, and you can have it wherever you want. I remember so vividly, going on trips when we were younger, and stopping on the side of the road, in the van, next to a river or something, and all the kids just climbing in the boat, and rice parcels being-,
Moderator 1: We'll leave that in.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I just dropped my water bottle in my bag, that's so embarrassing. Yes, I remember really vividly being in Sri Lanka, and all the kids climbing in the back of the van, and rice parcels being laid out, and everyone just going mad for it.
Moderator 1: I need to know so much more about these rice parcels, because I've never heard of them, never had one. It's not just rice. What else is in there? How is it cooked?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: It's literally, like, a plate of rice and curry, so whatever curry that they're cooking that day. There's also a thing called lump rice, which is specially cooked rice with lots of curry and lots of different curries on top, but that's quite meaty, and I don't meat, so a rice parcel with just lentils, and aubergines, and jackfruit, and all sorts of lovely sambaal, all wrapped up in a banana leaf. Yes please. Oh, but Harehills, I did want to do a shout-out for Harehills.
Moderator 1: Yes?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: A takeaway in Harehills. I used to live there, and the walk home was just the best thing, walking from the Thackeray museum back to my flat, and you can get absolutely any food that you'd ever want, in the world, and special shout-out to my roti guy. I think his place was called the Murak Bakery, on the left-hand side of Harehills Lane, or Road, I can't remember. Yes, just everything in Harehills, every Harehills shop.
Moderator 1: Okay, might have to try that.
Moderator 2: Do a Harehills crawl.
Moderator 1: Yes, I've not spent a lot of time there, but there's another place called Anan Sweets.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Oh my God, I can't believe you're saying it like that, like you've never heard of Anan Sweets before. It's an institution.
Moderator 1: Gesticulated so wildly, you destroyed all of my equipment.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: I'm so sorry. Okay, it's on the same road as, yes, Anan Sweets. Everything on that road.
Moderator 1: Wait, what shall I get at Anan Sweets?
Ranmalie Jayawardana: You can just ask them for a selection. Also, because I'm vegan, as well, they used to just do-, because a lot of Indian sweets are condensed milk, that's why it's so good, but yes, if you just ask them for a selection, they do a vegan selection as well. The laddu is particularly good there.
Moderator 1: Okay, on it. Ranmalie, thank you so much for coming on the pod. We really appreciate it, and also, we've had a great day in Liverpool, and it's just been great.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Thank you so much for having me.
Moderator 1: Also, the sausage sandwich that you had looked really good, I was looking at it.
Moderator 2: Good bread.
Moderator 1: Yes.
Ranmalie Jayawardana: Thank you, multi-grain.
Moderator 1: Oh, it's really hot in here.
Moderator 2: It's really hot in here.
Moderator 1: Go on, tell me about how I shouldn't drink this fast.
Moderator 2: You need to sip, because it goes straight to your bladder.
Moderator 1: That was the sound of me ignoring Sara.
Moderator 2: Ranmalie, Ranmalie, I can't think of a rhyming word, but-,
Moderator 1: It's a hard one to rhyme with-,
Moderator 2: Yes, but what a fantastic person. As soon as Ranmalie was walking towards us, she just looked incredibly cool, she was wearing sunglasses, cool jeans, we got in there and she was just eating this sausage sandwich, and I was just like, 'Oh, God, I'm really uncool. This is really bad.'
Moderator 1: How did she make what was a kind of sad-looking lunch look infinitely cooler than anything we've ever done?
Moderator 2: Also, she had some really wonderful things to say.
Moderator 1: Didn't she? Yes, apparently, she really knows what she's talking about, which is excellent, and it is exactly why she's doing what she's doing. What was your best one?
Moderator 2: Well, it's the bit that really made me think a little bit. I was thinking throughout it, don't get me wrong, but when she said about how museums sometimes take for granted the fact that people will want to engage with them, and communities will want to share their stories, and that's the end point. It's like, it needs to be a much more reciprocal relationship, and what are those people actually getting? How are you remunerating them for the stories and the objects they're giving you? (TC 00:50:00)
Moderator 1: I agree. That was my takeaway as well, that there's so much work that goes on behind the scenes to build relationships with communities, different types of people, and the output, and what you get out of it from a public-facing point of view, is almost besides the point, sometimes. Because it's all well and good saying you've done all this work, and 'Let's get some feedback,' or however you want to put it out there, but actually, in the long term, duty, as a civic space, is that we look after these groups of people and they're made to feel welcome in the city, and in the community, and in the environment that they're operating in. If museums can be that, then that's job done, really. We have those same conversations here at Leeds museums, and it's-, wow, that was a big truck going past. The whole building shook.
Moderator 2: Oh, my God. It felt like space-,
Moderator 1: I was saying something really good.
Moderator 2: I'd tuned out about two minutes ago. No, you were, it was important.
Moderator 1: I also liked when she was like, 'Yes, the rest of my team are all people of colour.' It's actually not common practice at all.
Moderator 2: It's not common for museums, is it?
Moderator 1: Definitely. I also think, the other thing is, as well, we're very fortunate that we've found a platform that we are comfortable with, as semi-anxious people, that-,
Moderator 2: 'Semi?'
Moderator 1: Yes, I know, I'm being optimistic today. We can then-,
Moderator 2: Sorry, just for context, Sara and I are potentially going wild swimming after work, and we're both just so anxious about it. We're trying to find a way out of wild swimming, which is going to be lovely.
Moderator 1: Wild. Yes, so, I think having this format to share things, because you can hide behind it a little bit as well, although it's audio, and it's out there and it's on the Internet, it is quite a private thing.
Moderator 2: You sounded a bit Scouse then. 'You can hide. You can hide behind it.'
Moderator 1: Anyway, we've really banged on a bit there, so, shall we-,
Moderator 2: Oh, yes, we'll do the wrapping-up bits. A big thank-you to everyone who's listened to the series.
Moderator 1: Mate, endlessly, thank you. Yes, it's really-, yes, can't believe it. Well, I can, because I see the stats. No, we do really appreciate it, though, and I tell everyone that I know.
Moderator 2: Yes. It's really lovely to have so many people like what we do.
Moderator 1: Also, if you have got to this point and you're currently listening to us, and you've enjoyed it, please can you actually let us know? Even if you don't want to write a review, fine, but can you just drop us a message? We just love it, don't we, when people message us to say that they listen to the pod, I die, it's like the only validation that I need, it's so fantastic. It's just wonderful, and it really helps us to be like, 'Yes, we should do another series.' We have got a good-, we've already thought about some guests for next series, haven't we?
Moderator 2: Oh, yes.
Moderator 1: I'm not saying anything, but, what I will say is-,
Moderator 2: You can't help yourself.
Moderator 1: I'm going to be practising my Scottish accent.
Moderator 2: I can do Scottish, but only after I've heard Nicola Sturgeon speaking.
Moderator 1: Really?
Moderator 2: It's really good, so, do subscribe to be the first to hear that, guys. If you haven't already subscribed, that'd be fantastic, if you do that.
Moderator 1: Cool, right. Thanks to Al Finney.
Moderator 2: Yes, doing our covert artwork, and to Timmy Bentley, who's had a terrible year, so just shout-out and extra love to Timmy Bentley for doing our theme tune, which we love. Transcript's on the website.
Moderator 1: That's about it, mate.
Moderator 2: Oh, God, is that it? Do you feel emotional?
Moderator 1: Not remotely. I just feel hot.
Moderator 2: Quite hungry and hot.
Moderator 1: I've got that seed in my tooth. I'm going to nibble on that later.
Moderator 2: Out of context.
Moderator 1: Okay, have a great time. See you soon.
Moderator 2: Bye.
Moderator 1: Bye.
