You are flippin' in the Queer Britain museum

Dan Vo: a vibe.

A VERY exciting episode this week, as we interview self-titled Museum Queerator Dan Vo at Queer Britain - the UK’s first LGBTQ+ museum.

Dan talks us through the stories that the museum tells, why the work they’re doing is so important, and the impact it's had so far. Basically, how to museum good.

Go and visit! Right now! Go go go! 

If you enjoy the episode, subscribe on all the usual podcast platforms and give us a review on  Apple Podcasts.  There’s a good sport.

Transcript

Moderator 1: I've got a really good story to tell you. I've saved it, I nearly text you when it happened. 

Moderator 2: Really? I love it that this happens now when you're, like, 'No, I need to save this.' 

Moderator 1: Yes, I just wanted to save it for your reaction. 

Moderator 2: Okay, off you go then. 

Moderator 1: Okay, hello, I chickened it out of it. Hey-up, hey-up. 

Moderator 2: Yes, that was better. 

Moderator 1: Hey-up and welcome to the Museums n'That podcast where each episode we have a chin-wag and serve you the steaming hot tea on the things that museum people love the most. We're your hosts, Meg and Sara, from Leeds Museums and Galleries, and we get to know the people behind the objects by asking them the questions that you really want to know. 

Moderator 2: Right, apparently you have a good story to tell me, off you go. 

Moderator 1: Yes, right, so basically I was going out for a drink with Milo after work in Headingley, and basically, so we got the bus, la-di-dah-di-dah, cha-cha-cha. 

Moderator 2: In case you don't know how buses go. 

Moderator 1: Drive, drive, drive, and got off-, 

Moderator 2: The wheels on the bus go. 

Moderator 1: Got off the bus-, 

Moderator 2: Oh God, this story is thrilling. 

Moderator 1: Suddenly I think, 'God.' 

Moderator 2: This better be good. 

Moderator 1: It is good. 'Meg's left her bloody phone on the bus.' 

Moderator 2: Oh no. 

Moderator 1: Yes, I left my phone on the bus, mate, number six, which by the way, is the bus that I've always liked the least in Leeds because this one time it was really annoying, it was just really a horrible bus, this one time, it was so funny in hindsight. Basically the number six bus ran over Danny Cipriani. 

Moderator 2: Wow. 

Moderator 1: Yes, I know, and it was a whole thing. Anyway, so it was the number six, obviously left my phone on the bus, absolutely, like, you know that feeling of sick in your stomach, I was, like, 'Oh, fine,' went to Bottle Chop, everyone in Bottle Chop was, like, 'Oh God, that's really annoying, so sorry.' 

Moderator 2: I love how you told everyone in Bottle Chop. 

Moderator 1: Yes, obviously I told everyone, they were telling me about what to do, and I was, like, 'Cool, give me the wine.' Then Dan comes and he's, like, 'Just been on the phone to Gareth, Gareth's got your phone.' 

Moderator 2: Oh, that's really good. 

Moderator 1: Yes, this sweet, sweet prince called Gareth picked it up, did the emergency ID contact thing, so anyone listening, put emergency contacts in your phone, and called Dan and he was, like, 'Hey, I've got the phone, do you want to come and pick it tomorrow?' sent me his address, I went to pick it up. Gareth opened the door and was, like, 'Are you Megan?' and I was, like, 'Yes, that's me,' and he was, like, 'Okay, here's your phone,' and he said that he was going through a really hard time last year and he had a day where he lost his wallet and his phone, and two different people picked them up and helped him out and did the same thing, and he was, like, 'I just wanted to pay that forward.' I was, like, 'Alright, Gareth, I'm just going to shed a bloody tear here, because you're just like the sweetest boy.' 

Moderator 2: So, he wanted to pay it forward by you accidentally leaving your phone-, it's a lot of-, 

Moderator 1: No, he wanted to pay it forward by, like, he found a phone and he was, like, 'Okay, I should now do this for someone else,' instead of handing it in somewhere, he did it himself. 

Moderator 2: He should anyway, but yes, a good thing to do. 

Moderator 1: Yes, can you not be mean about Gareth? 

Moderator 2: I mean, he sounds like a great guy, but also-, 

Moderator 1: I keep thinking I might send him something. 

Moderator 2: No, this is the whole part of the plan. 

Moderator 1: What? 

Moderator 2: That he's now made you feel guilty for you leaving your phone and him picking it up and you coming to collect. 

Moderator 1: No, he's not made me feel guilty, I feel at one with the world. You aren't as impressed with that story as I wanted you to be, that's a really nice story. 

Moderator 2: I'll be honest, I, kind of, trailed off at the beginning, much like most of our listeners, about the bus. 

Moderator 1: Yes, I spent too long about-, 

Moderator 2: Yes, you did. 

Moderator 1: I did, I spent too long on the bus. 

Moderator 2: It was about the same length of time that it takes to get the bloody bus up there. 

Moderator 1: Well, go on then, you tell a good story. 

Moderator 2: Don't have one. The story that I have involves what we did for this episode, which was going down to London, and it was really a non-stressful day because the museum is at King's Cross. 

Moderator 1: Oh, that was so good. 

Moderator 2: That we went to visit, and, oh my God, it was so hot that day it was really just very nice. 

Moderator 1: I kept weeing. 

Moderator 2: Yes, you did do a lot, you did, like, four wees before we got to London. 

Moderator 1: Yes, I know. 

Moderator 2: Mad. 

Moderator 1: I don't know what was wrong. 

Moderator 2: I don't know, we've got over that though, haven't we? 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Yes, so it's fine. 

Moderator 1: Go on, do you want to tell everyone who it is then? Really special episode. 

Moderator 2: This is really special, and we just had such a lovely day, but we did it with Dan Vo off of Queer Britain. 

Moderator 1: Which is brand new, brand new museum. 

Moderator 2: Can you imagine? Not only a new museum, but a new museum celebrating queer identity and culture, which is really exciting. 

Moderator 1: Also, Dan taught us a thing or two about editing, and I can tell because you keep going back and repeating what you're saying in a way that's going to be much easier for me to edit when you mess up. Dan taught you that. Thank you, Dan. 

Moderator 2: Well, yes, he did, because he used to be a radio broadcaster, so I think he was, like, 'Yes, I've got this,' and then what did he do? Banged around. He was so wonderful though, I literally had such a good time talking to him, and I did want him to be my best friend. 

Moderator 1: Anyway, enough of us and bloody bus. 

Moderator 2: Alright, Dan. 

Moderator 1: We'll let Dan tell you all about it, so here you go, here's Dan Vo's episode of Museums n'That, everyone, enjoy. Also, on our notes I've written, 'Hello, Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan,' and then in my head I've literally just been singing, (moderator sings 04.56). I don't know where it's come from or what's happened, but that's a great way to start a podcast, right, Dan? 

Dan Vo: I think it is, yes. 

Moderator 2: We were just discussing all of the various sound effects, but you've created a new one. 

Moderator 1: I should sound clip that. 

Moderator 2: Please don't. 

Moderator 1: Then you should just play it wherever you go. Dan's, like, gone, kind of-, 

Dan Vo: Henry Mancini's Walk of the Elephant is (respondent sings 05.18). Is that Henry Mancini? 

Moderator 2: I don't know. 

Dan Vo: No, I think it's-, 

Moderator 1: Dan, sorry, we're not cultured, we don't know. 

Dan Vo: I don't think that's culture. 

Moderator 1: So, anyway, listeners, here we are at King's Cross with Dan. 

Dan Vo: Hi. 

Moderator 1: Hi, Dan. Dan, please could you tell our listeners who the flip you are. 

Dan Vo: I'm flippin' Dan Vo. 

Moderator 1: Yes, you flippin' are. 

Dan Vo: You are flippin' in the Queer Britain Museum, the first LGBTQ+ museum in the UK, which is super-exciting. Sound effect, applause. 

Moderator 2: Wait, wait, wait. 

Moderator 1: Which one is that? I never know, it could be any. 

Moderator 2: Great guess, brilliant. 

Moderator 1: First time, it's a good omen. Dan, what do you do? What's your role at the museum? 

Dan Vo: Well, at the moment we've got quite a slim team, so there's a handful of us, and some of that means that we will help each other out on different things. We've been open for a little while now, and now it's really to work out, how do we do engagement good? 

Moderator 1: Probably not like that, I'll be honest, do engagement good. 

Dan Vo: So, yes, right now the space that we're actually in is also the community space. It's called the studio, for me this is, like, the place where all the chaos happens. You had a quick walk around. How do you feel about the space upstairs? 

Moderator 2: It's so lovely. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: So lovely, just, like, the shop's beautiful and the galleries are beautifully laid out, and it just feels like just a really well-considered space, not that it wouldn't be, but I just think for a new museum as well it's a massive congratulations, and a real feat to get here, I think, definitely. 

Moderator 1: It smells really good. 

Moderator 2: Oh my God, it smells incredible. 

Moderator 1: Which is a brilliant thing. So, Dan, let us have the keys when he was down here recording, so we were allowed to just roam free, and we didn't break anything. 

Moderator 2: No, and we also nearly but didn't walk into a room where there were people, which would have been the offices, I should imagine. 

Dan Vo: Oh right, yes, of course. Oh, you went for a full roam then. 

Moderator 2: Oh yes. We were, like, (talking over each other 07.25). 

Moderator 1: Yes, no, we went and dug around and we were, like, 'People are in there.' 

Dan Vo: Well, for me upstairs is very neat, it's very well-thought-out, as you say. The curators have had their hand, the visual director's been in. Down here, right here where we are right now, this is the messy room, this is where all the chaos happens, this is where the community is going to come. 

Moderator 2: It's not messy right now. 

Moderator 1: It's also very cold. 

Dan Vo: Shall we fix that? No. 

Moderator 2: I'm all for throwing things around, but talking about you dipping in and out of things, you generally wear quite a lot of hats across the museum sector, so could you tell our listeners a little bit about what you do? I know that's a big ask. 

Dan Vo: Well, I think my museum journey really starts with the V&A Museum, so I was a volunteer there in 2013, so we're coming on ten years now, and it was just the new group that was coming in when Katarina, our volunteer manager, started up and said, 'I want to throw open the doors of the museum, I want to just really diversify the volunteering team,' so that's how I got in. Then in about 2015 I proposed that we would do an LGBTQ+ tour, and we committed to putting it on the permanent calendar, and that made us the first museum to do that on a permanent schedule, and that's how my journey started. So, since then I've been doing lots of different things in different museums. That's usually around queer history, it's usually around queer heritage. For example, I was just at the Fitzwilliam Museum yesterday, we're reviewing Bridging Binaries there, which is the LGBTQ+ tour there, but all across the country, I've done stuff with National Gallery Scotland, stuff with them, Amgueddfa Cymru, National Museum Wales, so yes, I really need to do something in Northern Ireland just to get the full-, 

Moderator 1: Absolutely, and also Leeds, of course, because it's God's own country, isn't it, right? 

Moderator 2: Being from Australia you're, like, 'Yes, I've just nipped up to Scotland,' I bet you do that all in a day, because it's so close, everywhere here in comparison. 

Moderator 1: So, you call yourself, is it a museum queerator? 

Dan Vo: Yes. 

Moderator 1: I love it, yes, that should be in the dictionary. 

Dan Vo: It was a joke, but it stuck. 

Moderator 1: Yes, it's a good joke. 

Dan Vo: Yes, I think part of what my journey is right now is also to skill up in the sector as well, so I'm going back to school. I went back to school a few years ago just to foot my BA, and now I'm going back and just going to get a master's, so eventually I might switch to the full big C curator, but at the moment queerator means that I can dabble a bit and play around. I think the great thing for me about the queer history is whenever you get an audience in, is to just flip it on them and go, 'What do you see? What you bring to this, what you bring to the equation is so important.' I think when they are able to realise that (TC 00:10:00) (1) the door is wide open for them, and then (2) when they get here their knowledge, their lived experience becomes part of the interaction as well, I think it's actually quite exciting for them. So, yes, for me that's what a queerator is, it's not just the things that we're dealing with, it's the way that we do it as well. There's a slight queer to the way that we will work on celebrating queer history here. 

Moderator 1: Do you get a lot of quite emotional interactions with people who you work with and visitors, who don't necessarily expect to find representation of their lives in museums? Have you ever had emotional responses to the work you do? 

Dan Vo: I think the most significant one I've ever had was at the end of a V&A tour. I love to finish all my tours at the time at what's it called now is the 1900 Now Gallery, and in this space, which is like a mezzanine, you can see on three levels, because there are mirrors above and you can walk below and look up, if you go right now you'll see there are three flags. But the two most significant ones for me, one's a new addition, so one's the inclusive Pride flag, that's really important, but that's quite new. What's been there for a lot longer is this bright orange flag, and three quarters down there's a black stripe right across it. You get people there and you go, 'What do you think that is? What does that look like?' They start throwing out suggestions, and you start to help piece the story together for them, which is in the Olympic Games there were six athletes, this is 2016, I think, who weren't represented or weren't representing a nation because they didn't have a nation. Then they, kind of, go, 'Oh right, yes, so it's the refugee nation,' and then you start to realise that the orange represents a life jacket and that black stripe is like a buckle, and it also represents the horizons are being traversed and travailed. So, I always use that as a way of talking about the fact that there were laws that came out of the UK, Great Britain or Britain, and it came all around the world where you'd have different sections where it's illegal to be homosexual around the world. 

Whenever I talk about that then the penny drops and people realise that we have a responsibility here to help those people who are activists in those countries, trying to reform those laws, to support them in that. On one particular day a group dispersed, and that was the end of the tour, and they realised that that's the takeaway, go away and you now have an active role in helping to change reform around the world. Three women stayed back and they waited for everybody to leave, you had to say goodbye to everyone, and they, sort of, just hung there, and then they came up to me and said, 'We've just come off a plane this morning from one of those countries. The punishment from where we're at is, if we did anything that you talked about or just talked about that in our country there are severe punishments for that.' The punishment for loving someone as you would on the LGBTQ+ tour, either identity or sexuality or gender or whatnot is stoning. They basically jumped on a plane because they'd heard about the tours and wanted to just experience that sense of freedom, that's what they said, that afternoon and be amongst others. So, you don't plan for that kind of engagement, do you, but when it happens, it was a remarkable moment, and so I had to just stop everything and just spend the rest of the day with them, and they were just wonderful. It was a very, very, very poignant moment that I don't think I'll ever forget. 

Moderator 2: No, it's incredible, and I think to have that influence and to have reached people on that level, that's what it's about, isn't it? If you've made that impact on people, they then go away and have more confidence in their identity and themselves and to give them that strength is just an incredible thing, so yes, that's amazing. 

Moderator 1: I think when we knew that we were coming to talk to you and we were reading about Queer Britain and thinking about the kind of things we wanted to ask, I feel like this space really represents how museums aren't just museums, they're not just about objects in a case telling history. It's a really good case study for the kind of social responsibility that museums have. Just to go back a bit to Queer Britain as one of the hats that you wear, do you wear a lot of hats usually, Dan? 

Moderator 2: Do you like a hat? 

Dan Vo: Got a big head, really big head. Had to scrape through the door-frame. 

Moderator 2: I think you could carry off a fedora. 

Moderator 1: You'd look really good in a fedora. You could smash it. 

Moderator 2: You know, just as a discreet hat. 

Dan Vo: I used to wear a beret around university, I was such-, 

Moderator 1: Did you? 

Dan Vo: Yes, such a prat. 

Moderator 2: What did you do at uni, Dan? Did you start your museum journey? Was it with volunteering at the V&A? What did you do before? 

Dan Vo: So, in case you haven't spotted the Australian accent, I grew up in Melbourne and I had pushy Asian parents and so I had to do something meaningful with my life and it was not going to be art, so I did business first. So, this has been, sort of, a fifteen-year journey to get back to where I wanted to be in the first place, yes. 

Moderator 1: Welcome back. 

Dan Vo: Thank you. 

Moderator 1: So, with the museum, we're here now, and like you said, it just opened a few weeks ago. How do you start a museum? What was the concept and how did it start? 

Dan Vo: So, there are a few moments of where the idea sparked among the team here, and so I do have to turn to Joseph Galliano, who's our director here, and I think for him it was when he was walking around Queer British Art, so that's 2017, the Tate, Clare Barlow is the curator of this fantastic exhibition that for the first time was using the word 'queer' in a national exhibition as well. So, it was quite a significant watershed moment, because it was also the year that we were celebrating the 50th anniversary of partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in England and Wales. 

Moderator 2: It's just a small mouthful, isn't it? 

Dan Vo: I know. 

Moderator 1: Also, LGBTQ+ is also quite a mouthful, and it's like a really good mouth exercise. 

Dan Vo: Shall we do it all together? 

Moderator 1: Okay. 

LGBTQ+ (all speak at once). 

Moderator 2: We were talking about you being a dancer earlier. Maybe we should-, inspiration, Joseph Galliano. 

Moderator 1: You said this is like a chaotic space, this is what's happening. 

Dan Vo: I love it, yes, exactly, sparking creativity. We're going to be doing a dance TikTok after this, immediately after to promote the podcast. 

Moderator 1: Absolutely, 100%, yes. 

Dan Vo: So, yes, I think for Joe it was the moment when he stood in front of-, so two significant things I had there. One, I think it was the card that was left behind by the Marquess of Queensberry that said, 'You, Sir, are a Somdomite,' because he' misspelt it for a start, and he was so furious that he couldn't spell, he was a newspaper editor and couldn't spell. So, he left that behind for Oscar Wilde, which sparked the whole court case, the libel court case and his conviction, or two court cases in fact. It was standing in front of the Reading Jail door and you've got a connection to Reading. 

Moderator 1: Shout out to Reading, shout out to Joe Vaughan, shout out to Reading. 

Moderator 2: Shout out to my mum. 

Dan Vo: Aww, hi, Mum. 

Moderator 2: Oscar Wilde? 

Moderator 1: Oscar Wilde, yes, I forgot about him. 

Dan Vo: Yes, it was standing in front of that door, and it was life-, well, of course it was life-size, it was the real door, but next to it there was a John Singer Sargent painting of Oscar Wilde, and they were of equal height, and it just formed this rather significant moment when you saw this very-, because if you're being painted by John Singer Sargent you're putting on your best clothes for a start, and you're going to just puff up your chest proud, aren't you? 

Moderator 1: You want to look as hot as hell. 

Dan Vo: Yes, and then opposite that was the door that brought him low, that was the lowest moment of his life, or one of the lowest moments of his life, and the thing that brought about his-, he would never return to that level of pride ever again in his life. So, that counterpoint was quite significant, and so I think Joe thinks of that as a rather important moment, and delighted to say that Clare Barlow is one of the people that helps out here on the curatorial team as well, so we've got some really great minds that are involved in this museum. I think when you say, 'We want to start a queer museum,' everyone I think in the museum sector was, like, 'Yes, definitely, how can I help?' 

Moderator 2: Yes, that's incredible to have that passion and support from the rest of the sector, because I know you said earlier it's like a one day a week thing, but work goes up and down and that's museums and funding and all that delightful stuff that comes with it, but the fact that you have so much support. I know that when we found out about it as well it was just, like, 'A new museum for a start, and then a museum on queer identity and culture and history.' 

Moderator 1: Everyone in Leeds is literally so jealous that we're here today. 

Moderator 2: Yes, you've absolutely smashed it Dan, I have to be honest. 

Dan Vo: I mean, above us is the Art Fund, so we've got to say thank you to the Art Fund for having this-, 

Moderator 2: Shout out to the Art Fund, yes. 

Dan Vo: Yes, it's an incubation space, so the House of Illustration was here before. 

Moderator 2: HoI, House of Illustration. 

Moderator 1: That's what it stands for, right? 

Moderator 2: She was looking at the buzzer and she was, like, 'What's Hoi?' 

Moderator 1: So, we were meeting Dan outside the museum and there was a buzzer. 

Moderator 2: It said 'HoI'. 

Moderator 1: It said 'HoI' and I was, like, 'What's Hoi?' 

Moderator 2: I was, like, 'I think it's the organisation that was in here before.' 

Moderator 1: Yes, and then I was going to press it, but I was, like, 'What if it's for upstairs?' and then I'm, like, 'Hi, can I speak to Dan?' and then they send down a Dan and it's not the right Dan, and then it would just be a whole stressful thing. 

Dan Vo: It's an Ozzie thing as well, 'Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie, hoi, hoi, hoi'. 

Moderator 1: I know what you mean. 

Moderator 2: Very good, very good. 

Moderator 1: Brilliant. 

Dan Vo: You know, this is in incubation space, so we've got this for about two years, so we've got to work out how to be a museum as best we can, or how to museum good, and then, like the House of Illustration, we've got to then learn to fly and go into our big space, our full-time space, our permanent home. So, this is the-, 

Moderator 1: So, you've got to find it. 

Dan Vo: You're seeing us at the start of a new arc as well, which is great, so yes. 

Moderator 2: Anyone listening that has loads of money. 

Dan Vo: My mobile number is 077-, 

Moderator 2: Where would you like to be? (TC 00:20:00) Well, in London, I'm guessing, but if you could be in any building or any space where-, 

Moderator 1: I hear that Leeds is really nice. 

Dan Vo: You know, I do love Leeds, you know I love Leeds. I used to bus in to do ballet with Northern Ballet. 

Moderator 2: At 6:30am on the Megabus. 

Moderator 1: I love that for both you and me. 

Moderator 2: Oh God, I feel so sick just thinking about you doing that journey. Awful. 

Moderator 1: Yes, where would be your dream place for this to be? 

Dan Vo: You know, I think wherever we do it, it just needs to be able to tell the story of the fact that we've got Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England in that mix, so what I love about this place, and it's thanks to the Art Fund really, is that the location is so good because you can train in schools from around the country. 

Moderator 1: Yes, and also there's an ice cream shop right there, and Waitrose. 

Moderator 2: Yes, it looks such a posh Waitrose. 

Dan Vo: Oh my gosh, yes, not essential, but-, 

Moderator 1: The Waitrose has a wine bar in it, guys, it looks pretty good. 

Dan Vo: So, I'm just looking at a map and going, 'Waitrose, ice cream, yes. Waitrose, no ice cream, no.' 

Moderator 2: Yes, basically that should be your basis. 

Dan Vo: And train station. 

Moderator 2: Sorry, I was going to say, place is really important, I think, especially somewhere that is based around a specific culture and identity, as opposed to a regional or a general museum of lots of stuff. The place is just as important and makes part of the story, certainly for me anyway, and I think, like you say, this feels like an inclusive, accessible place to get to. I mean, we've come down from Leeds, we jumped off the train, we're here and it's quite nice not having that ultimate fear of having to go on a Tube. It's so pathetic, but here we are. 

Moderator 1: Little Northern monkeys, just, like, you know? 

Moderator 2: Yes, and you were speaking about the buildings and the history and the architecture and the communities that are around here as well, and it is a diverse mix from class and culture side of things, and I think that's really important to be able to gauge who and what and when and why they're coming. That's a really fun part to be in. 

Dan Vo: Yes, I think that's the thing, when any of us uprooting our museum and moving to a different location, you have to work out what is the reality of the place that you're working at? So for us, if you pull out an old map and you've got King's Cross, Euston, St Pancras all here, if you think about the fact that Coal Drops Yard is down that way, they are the mirror image to us, when you've got Central Saint Martins in Granary Square, it just clues into exactly what was going on here. So, you've got the granary, you've got the coal, you've got the fact that all the stations, the smoke and steam and soot and all that awful-, trains coming in would have all that mess and noise and dirt and all that would have come up this way. This was not a nice area to live, and there are still echoes of that. This area has been massively gentrified. We've got some huge organisations moving down in and they've built these architectural-, they had a competition and built all these architectural buildings down there, but there are still remnants of this that we have to remember. It should be celebrated as part of the history of this as well, we have to recognise it, I suppose, the history of that as well, and so I think, yes, there are certainly communities around here that I want to tap into, and also we've got some wonderful queer history around this place as well. 

So, we're not far from Gay is the Word, if you've seen Pride and you know the place where people have been buying books, they were raided in the 1980s, I think, or the 1990s perhaps, but they were raided, and they were a site of activism. So, they're down there, you've got London Friend, who celebrates 50 years this year, they're a brilliant counselling service for LGBTQIA+ people. There's so much rich history around here, and for us it's just about tapping into all that and connecting up all the dots, and while we are here, to be a big part of that. 

Moderator 2: Yes, absolutely. 

Moderator 1: So, obviously it's Queer Britain and it's like a national museum. How do you make sure that you connect with people that aren't just in London? What's your outreach like, and how do you make sure that people in Scotland, people in Wales, feel like this is for them too? 

Dan Vo: I mean, we've got lots of advisory groups for everything as well, and so I think especially when you talk about the full acronym as well, there are a few other overlays that we have to make sure that we consider as well. So, Joe's always been great at connecting us to lots of different groups and people, and I think now that we've actually got a permanent space as well, it makes that connection a lot easier. So, I think for us it's going to grow from here as well, but it's always on our forefront, especially when we're doing curatorial things as well. What you see at the moment upstairs is an exhibition that Matthew Storey, Historical Palaces, he's done lots of stuff in queer heritage. It's like the greatest hits of the last four years of what we've been doing as these pop-up exhibitions. It does do I think quite a good job of highlighting some key points in the last, I suppose, 19th century is the very first photograph that we have, so from that period to modern day, it touches on some key points, the flash points when you had men going to jail for being homosexual, you have the very first Pride in the 1970s, you've got Grayson Perry, I think, in the 1990s winning the Turner Prize. That was a significant moment, wasn't it, but you've also got a new set of photographs as well, for photographers who were commissioned, and it's exploring chosen families so it's, like, how do we define ourselves with the people around us as well? So, I think as a greatest hits I quite like it. It is colourful. 

Moderator 2: Yes, and, well, that reminds me, it's not directly linked, but when you come into the museum it explains a little bit about why you've called it Queer Britain, because I think that is important, because 'queer' is an emotive word, it's got a lot of historical connotations, and the way that it's been positioned here is that it's the most inclusive out of the acronym and that you're reclaiming it. I think it's written really beautiful. 

Moderator 1: Yes, sorry, we've had a few cases where we've used the word 'queer', as Leeds Museums and Galleries, we work with an amazing group called West Yorkshire Queer Stories that go about collecting queer history from the area and archiving the queer objects that we already have in the collection. 

Dan Vo: I've got the book, it's pink, isn't it? Beautiful, yes. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Dan Vo: It's so stunning. 

Moderator 1: It's an amazing group. Our community team work with them really closely, but when we've maybe on social media written content about our work with them, we've had some comments from followers saying, 'Please don't use the word 'queer'. I take great offence to it.' So, it's really interesting seeing how you've navigated that in the stance that you have-, it's good to know for us, I think. 

Moderator 2: Well, it ultimately is quite a personal choice, isn't it, to use it and identify or not. 

Dan Vo: Derek Jarman I think is a good example of this, so in 1992 in his personal diary he wrote, 'For me now to use the 'queer' is a liberation. I once feared the word, but no more.' I think in the 1990s there was a lot of campaigning around the use of the word, a reclaiming of the word. It is beautifully written about in Clare Barlow's book for the Tate for Queer British Art, so if you want to see the history of the word 'queer' from the 16th century through to today where it does take on all these different meanings, it's got all those strange elements to it than in more modern times. I think Clare pointed to a vaudeville song which was from I think 1908, Fred Jester Barnes saying that he's the black sheep of the family and, 'It's a queer, queer world that we live in.' That was a pointed comment. If you knew, you knew. So, it was an identifier already, so there we are, turn of the century, a self-identifier, and very much nowadays so many of the people who come in through the doors are saying, 'I'm queer.' I'd say that as well, and I think the way that it encapsulates so much history as well, in the 1990s a person said, 'It's a liberation for me to use it.' It was used at the turn of the century as another way of signalling to others that, 'This is my identity,' to those who claim it today as well. I find it rather beautiful to use. 

It's funny as well, so the other thing is I grew up in Melbourne, so it was called the Melbourne Queer Film Festival, it was called the Melbourne Queer this, that, the other, and growing up in that sector with that word always around when I was younger as well just meant that I had a different experience with the word. 

Moderator 1: Dan, what are your, kind of, favourite stories or photographs that you've currently got on display at Queer Britain? 

Dan Vo: I'm probably going to date the podcast by saying what I'm about to say. I'm wearing a football Pride shirt at the moment. 

Moderator 1: Yes, when we saw you this morning I was, like, 'This is very good timing from us.' 

Dan Vo: The funny thing is, I almost literally no nothing about football, but I-, 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Yes, agreed, but I watched that video and I nearly cried. 

Dan Vo: I haven't seen it yet. 

Moderator 1: I haven't seen the video. 

Moderator 2: Oh, he's so-, 

Moderator 1: Okay, so what happened here was, is that we really launched into talking about Jake Daniels, who is the footballer who came out the day before we interviewed Dan, but we didn't actually mention his name. Well done us, sorry Jake Daniels. 

Dan Vo: I find it funny, the wording around the way that it's-, what did they call him? The first professional active gay footballer. 

Moderator 1: Yes, you know, so many layers to it. 

Moderator 2: God forbid they just say he's gay. 

Moderator 1: It's like they've said, because he's not in a Premier League team. 

Dan Vo: Oh right, yes, professional, got you. 

Moderator 1: I feel like he's still a professional footballer. It's still high and it's a big deal. 

Dan Vo: I wonder if also they're saying 'active' because obviously Justin Fashanu, who's up in our gallery, is the first, and he was also a black professional player as well, so his story is rather sad, but also very remarkable. If you follow through there's also another on the wall. 

Moderator 2: Yes, and Meg made a really good point of saying, 'Isn't this really interesting? You've been open for a matter of weeks and the history has changed again.' That's amazing to be a part of that. 

Moderator 1: In my head I was, like, 'Oh my God, sorry, Dan, you're going to have to change that object label to reflect-,' 

Moderator 2: Yes, the interpretation is incorrect. Also, sorry, for listeners, I realise you can't see what Dan's currently wearing. Dan, would you like to explain? 

Dan Vo: Okay. 

Moderator 2: Take a photo. 

Moderator 1: Oh yes, I'll take a photo, okay. 

Moderator 2: Right, okay, go, football, Pride. 

Moderator 1: That was so embarrassing for Dan, I'm so sorry. 

Dan Vo: What you just heard was me posing in a really cheesy manner. You can literally hear my teeth glinting. 

Moderator 1: Yes, pure cheddar, yes. (TC 00:30:00) 

Dan Vo: So, there's definitely Football v Homophobia, so that's a wonderful organisation that have been fighting to change the game, so that we don't have people chanting things that are inappropriate, and we also have a sense of acceptance. So, well, we do now, when we have our first person who comes out as a professional footballer, it's going to be alright for them. We know there will be difficult moments for him ahead, so he's very brave in doing so, and it's a bit sad that you, kind of, think that, I suppose it's the start of another journey for him, he's going to have some tough times ahead. 

Moderator 2: He's put himself in the public eye very forcefully, and it's really interesting because I watched the video a couple of times, and the first time I watched it without any sound, but you can see the emotion and you can feel it, because they've edited it very cleverly where he's, like, (moderator sighs) and breathing and psyching himself up, and that's fascinating as well that he's had to put himself in another head space to just say something that is, 'This is my identity.' 

Moderator 1: Is that someone who you would try and actively work with and get in touch with? Where do you position yourselves as Queer Britain? Do you wait for them to come to you possibly, or are you active in your-, 

Moderator 2: Have you tweeted him, is what Meg's saying. 

Moderator 1: Yes, have you tweeted him, Dan? Have you been, like, 'Sorry, can you (talking over each other 31.16)?' 

Moderator 2: I was going to be, 'Have you slipped into his DMs?' and I was, like, 'Is that too far?' 

Dan Vo: I think the football term is 'sliding'. 

Moderator 2: Ah, nice, nice, nice, yes. You'll get a yellow card for that. 

Moderator 1: Do you know? There's a football term, right, this is three people who know nothing about football. 

Moderator 2: You're going to tell me 'sliding' is a football term? 

Moderator 1: No, there's a football term called 'megs'. 

Moderator 2: Is there? 

Moderator 1: You can megs someone, and it's, like, when you kick a ball through their legs or something, it's called megsing, and when someone first said it I was, like, 'That's me.' It was, like, (talking over each other 31.43). 

Moderator 2: I can't believe you've made this about you, but I can. 

Moderator 1: Always. Sorry. 

Dan Vo: Well, so one of the things that I'm looking to do when we're doing our community outreach is to just pull together a programme of talks. I would love to have a chat with him, get him in that chair right there, so I think the other person we'd have to put in the chair would be Lou Englefield, who's be running Football v Homophobia, which has become Football v Transphobia as well, and I'd probably like to have some of the other players. So, I used to photograph some of the teams, so it's a passion league where it's the gay teams, well, LGBTQIA+ teams, but yes, no, I'd love to get in touch. For me, football, and why I've always worked with Lou and also Jon Holmes, who does LGBTQ+ sports media, is that for me there was this stigma around being queer and being in sport. I felt like it was not a Venn diagram, I couldn't do both, and I've just been involved with him over the last few years. I love anything where you're saying, 'Everyone can do this.' So, another example for me is Fun Palaces where it's, like, 'Everyone's an artist, everyone's a scientist.' If you get the community into your space the community will tell you what they want to do in that space. Sport should be like that as well, where everyone should feel like they can be a sportsperson. 

I said he's got some challenges up ahead, but the great thing I know is that because of Football v Homophobia and Transphobia, and because of all the great teams, not the teams, sorry, the support, the fanbase, I can think of all the-, different teams have these fanbases that will come in with their rainbow flags, there's the Gay Gooners for Arsenal, I'm trying to think what the Leeds team is. 

Moderator 2: I don't know actually, that's very good, because we do a lot of work with Leeds United at Leeds City Museum, so should find out. 

Moderator 1: No, don't look at me. I literally don't know who you mean. 

Dan Vo: Come on, you're the one who knows all the different tactics. 

Moderator 2: Yes, alright, megs. 

Moderator 1: Also, if you do talks, so you've got photographs of Sandi Toksvig, you've got Ian McKellen, if they come can you please invite us? Because I just want to be in a room with Sandi Toksvig so much. 

Dan Vo: Oh yes, definitely. I don't know if I could cope if they came though, I'd end up just-, 

Moderator 2: Would you collapse? 

Moderator 1: I'd melt. 

Dan Vo: I don't know, something kicks into my body, I just endless curtsey. 

Moderator 2: Have you met anyone famous through the museum? 

Dan Vo: We were at a talk with Sandy Toksvig, so she's hosted a talk for us before, and she was interviewing Dustin Lance Black, who did the film Milk, that was a very, very-, I think for me it was quite an important film. I suppose there it was about the political power of coming out to your family and realising that if you could talk to your family suddenly your vote wasn't just your vote, it was now your family voting for you as well. You've played through things like-, there are two kilts upstairs, two people holding hands in just the kilts, and it obviously represents gay marriage. If you think about how that was won in many places, it was because of the political power of coming out. It was going to your family and saying, 'Look, if you really love me, support me in this,' and suddenly one vote becomes four, five, it escalates. 

Moderator 1: What are your other favourite stories that you've told? You said that you do tours at the V&A. Is there a particular object in their collection that you think is really representative of the history? 

Dan Vo: Well, I think they key one now is of course the inclusive rainbow flag, which already is outdated actually, so ours has the chevrons that are added, so it's got black and brown plus the Trans Pride colours as well, so blue, pink and white. 

Moderator 2: It's got to be the most fun flag in the world. 

Dan Vo: Well, there's more fun added to it now. There's an extra chevron with the yellow triangle with a purple circle now as well representing intersex people as well, so as you were saying before, the labels should be changed. Our community is constantly changing and new things coming into it, new understandings of ourselves are happening, so I think we've shifted as well. So, it shows how fast things are changing as well. 

Moderator 1: I don't know whether I was listening to a podcast or I saw online somewhere that there is someone who runs historic graveyard tours of LGBTQ+ history in London, and I was wondering, how much when you're telling the stories of people specifically, how much of that work is in hindsight after they've died? Does that make sense? I was trying to word this in my head. I was just, like, 'How much of it is to do with giving people their honest histories after death and encouraging it today?' What's the split? 

Dan Vo: I bet you're thinking of Sheldon Goodman who does Cemetery Club. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Dan Vo: It's really interesting. Alright, we're talking about cemeteries and death and all that sort of stuff, I had a question thrown at me the other day and it was to do with a chapel, Gonville & Caius in Cambridge, and there are two people buried there and they're buried together, and the tomb has them holding hands. So, what does that represent? There is an active interpretation involved in the telling of that story now. When you pore through, and I know that Sheldon does this sort of stuff, he will pore through personal letters if he can get a hold of them, he'll pore through contemporary articles from the time, obituaries and all that sort of stuff to try and decode that history. 

Moderator 2: I think that's the thing, isn't it, as well? I mean, it's all well and good going through history and knowing for a fact that it was incorrect or it was written by the victors in a certain way, but then when you're having to hide an identity, that's a whole different thing as well. That's not just, 'Well, I've got to look at everything that was going on at the time and everything that was connected to it,' but also how they might have spoken about themselves in a way which wasn't going to get them ending up in prison or worse. 

Moderator 1: It must be so difficult. 

Moderator 2: I want to do one of those tours. 

Moderator 1: Dan, what other museums do you think are doing really good things with queer history at the moment? 

Dan Vo: So, I'm about to start a bit of research around the idea of what can contemporary art in a historical collection help us understand the queerness in that collection. So, I think for me some of the best things that are happening at the moment are where the act of queering, as a verb, happens and they usually get nihilists to come in and do something that is changing the way that we see that collection. And at the Fitzwilliam Museum at the moment, in Cambridge, I think there are some really interesting things that are happening there. So, Matt Smith, the ceramist not the doctor, he's a professor, not a doctor. 

Moderator 1: Better than that. 

Dan Vo: Yes, exactly. So, he's created some ceramics that respond to other works in the collection that draw out their inherent queerness, which is rather nice. And then, there's Ada Wild, who is based in Hackney, and she has got a work that was just recently collected. And it's not necessarily queer but when you understand her story and her journey and creating this particular work, which is a boat made out of a 100 pound, let's just say pound for now, but it's a Syrian note, and her addressing her cultural heritage for the first time. She's a refugee in this country and she fled, and there was a lot of tragedy in her life, early on in her journey to get here. So, it's the first time that she's dared attempt to look at it. So, she's created a boat out of it. At the very top of the boat there's a flag that says, 'Choose love,' and it's referring to the Katharine Hamnett, 'Choose life,' but she's not reappropriated it in a way of supporting refugees. And for Ada, as you start to unravel that, there's everything in that. There's queerness in that, there's the refugee identity, there's her cultural background, and all that stuff. And when you place it in the context of an exhibition that is looking at conflict throughout history, and of course the conflict sometimes stems from the fact that people are fleeing. We go back to that refugee flag, they're fleeing because of these laws that are in place around the world, and it sometimes relates to the fact of their own identity, there are all these reasons why we flee. Yes, I think those are some interesting things about how you can try to understand queerness in historical collections through contemporary art. So, I think there have been some great collections that have done. Brighton Museum has. Birmingham, I was going to say the Brummie Museum, Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery, BMAG (TC 00:40:00), they've done that brilliantly as well. There are really good collections doing it out there. I should probably just put on my other cap now and just say, as part of the Queer Heritage and Collections Network, this is a network of about 100 organisations across the four regions and nations looking at queer history and heritage. And the whole purpose of the network is to support people doing this research. So, it's to identify who's doing what and match them up and go, 'Oh, you're both studying that particular person, why don't you compare notes?' So, there's that really strong sense of mentoring and support, and peer support. 

Moderator 1: It's like you're a queer history matchmaker. 

Dan Vo: I would love to do that, and so long as I could do the Miriam Margoyles from Moulin, you know, 'Pour the tea.' 

Moderator 1: I think it's really interesting what you were saying there about the work that other museums are doing. In Leeds at the minute we've got a group of young volunteers called the Preservative Party who work at Leeds City Museum, and they're currently planning an exhibition for next year, February next year, called Overlooked. And it's that thing of, they're looking through our collections to dig out those stories that maybe we don't tell or isn't present on our collections database. And museums don't have to get new objects in, you don't have to spend lots of money acquiring new things, it's just about telling the stories of the things you currently have. I can't remember her name but someone from Leeds was the first person from Leeds to win an academy award, I think she was a director or something to do with composing in films. Her name was April something, I will look that up and I'll write it in the description, because I've forgotten it. But, we have objects relating to her in our collection but she was a trans woman and all of the objects that we have are listed on our collections database under her dead name. And it's a really interesting people of young people who feel that they maybe aren't necessarily represented, wanting to change the way that we intrinsically and historically have labelled things. Okay, so, Dan, the first question that we ask all of our guests is, what's been your favourite day at work? 

Dan Vo: Okay. This is a favourite moment for a lot of us. It was after we had our first private view and everybody left and the whole team walked into the gallery just above us, and just slumped onto the floor with glasses and bottles, and just went, 'Ah.' Opening a new museum, that is a rare thing, to get in the end of that first PV and all just collectively heaving that sigh of relief. 

Moderator 2: A big museum fart, just like (talking over each other 42.48). 

Moderator 1: Yes, that's excellent, I love it. 

Dan Vo: Just let it all out. 

Moderator 1: Absolutely. 

Moderator 2: Better out than in. 

Moderator 1: That's a great answer. And our last question is a two-fold one. It is, what for our listeners would be the main take-away from everything we've talked about today? And what is your favourite literal take-away? 

Dan Vo: So, my favourite take-away is, you would have to fly all the way to Melbourne and go to my suburb, and go to the local Vietnamese bakery and get yourself a Banh Mi, which is basically a baguette-, it has everything in it, everything. Meat, and coriander, and chilli. It's just intense flavours. I grew up eating this every Saturday, kind of thing, it's the taste of home. 

Moderator 2: We should do that after this. 

Moderator 1: What, fly to Melbourne? 

Moderator 2: Yes, I'll find some family. 

Moderator 1: Okay, cool. 

Dan Vo: Next series, yes, down under. 

Moderator 1: Yes, let's do it. 

Moderator 2: We need that listener that's got all the money to just fund this. 

Moderator 1: Oh, yes. So, then everything that we've talked about today, what would be the take-away for our listeners? 

Dan Vo: I suppose the take-away is that, the theme has been, you're not alone. Whether it's, you're coming out or it's, you're embarking on this research for your collection around queer history, you are not alone. There are others who have been doing this and love doing this, and would love to support you as well. So, you don't have to do that journey on your own. 

Moderator 1: Unbelievable. That was the most wholesome take-away we've ever had. You're not alone, God. 

Dan Vo: My brain suddenly went to football mode. Isn't there a song that goes, 'You'll never walk alone'? 

Moderator 2: You'll never walk alone, yes. Of all the things that I thought we'd talk about, I didn't think that we'd talk this much about football today, but here we are. 

Moderator 1: And my brain went to Michael Jackson, 'You are not alone.' 

Dan Vo: Oh, 'I am here with you.' 

Moderator 1: Exactly. 

Moderator 2: Wow, that's brilliant. 

Moderator 1: Yes. 

Moderator 2: Dan, thank you so much for coming on the pod. I'm sorry it's been moderately chaotic. 

Moderator 1: That is what this room does. It seems serene but brings out the chaos. 

Dan Vo: We are moon-walking out of here. 

Moderator 1: Fantastic. We recorded in a really lovely room actually, as well. It was lovely and cool. It just gives it a different feel, doesn't it? 

Moderator 2: I just got good vibes as soon as we went there. 

Moderator 1: Yes, and everyone was lovely. We met the director. I don't know, it was just such a great vibe. 

Moderator 2: A vibe. 

Moderator 1: Hate saying that, I'm too old. 

Moderator 2: Sara and I just trying to reach new, younger audiences, so now we say the word, 'Vibe,' and, 'Vibey.' 

Moderator 1: We don't say that. What I would say is, Dan Vo, a vibe. 

Moderator 2: Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Moderator 1: Thank you so much, Dan, you're a prince. What was your favourite bit of that episode? 

Moderator 2: I really liked finding out about how Dan's work is taking a bit of a turn in terms of, he's going to be looking more after learning and community, and that aspect of it, and how they bring in the local community so it's an integrated museum experience from the very beginning. Because I think it's really, really difficult to get people on board for many reasons, but he's super-invested in it and I think that passion, it's so incredibly powerful to get people on board with stuff. And the fact that he put himself out in the first place and he created the tours at the V&A is really testament to that. So, it's not very succinct but I just think Dan was the best part of that episode. 

Moderator 1: I just need to think what mine was. Hats? 

Moderator 2: I like talking about hats. 

Moderator 1: I do suit hats. I do suit hats. 

Moderator 2: It's not about you. 

Moderator 1: So, we went down on the day or the day after, Jake Daniels, is that his name, became the first UK male footballer to come out as gay since the 1990s. And one of the object labels and the things that's discussed in the museum is the issue with homophobia in football. And the label said that there are currently no out footballers, and that's already going to have to be changed. Annoying for Dan but it's just really interesting. 

Moderator 2: Smug though, isn't it? 

Moderator 1: And Dan was wearing, I can't remember what it was, it was football pride, or something, t-shirt. 

Moderator 2: We did talk about that and I took a picture of it, and I will post it. But, yes, his t-shirt said, 'Football pride,' and I was just like, 'Oh my God, it's just all very current,' isn't it? 

Moderator 1: Yes. (talking over each other 47.16). 

Moderator 2: I know. Well, it's really easy to go into a museum and think you're going to see loads of old things but hang about guys, museums are relevant, fantastic. Great guest though, shout out to Dan. 

Moderator 1: Yes, excellent. 

Moderator 2: Hope you enjoyed that one. If you did enjoy it, please write us a review and like us, and rate us. 

Moderator 1: Subscribe. 

Moderator 2: Tell your mates and tell your dad. 

Moderator 1: Tell your Dan, everyone knows a Dan. 

Moderator 2: Tell your Dan. Maybe we could do it like that. 

Moderator 1: Tell your Dan. 

Moderator 2: Yes, tell your Dan. 

Moderator 1: Yes. Do you know a Dan? 

Moderator 2: Yes. 

Moderator 1: Plasterer? 

Moderator 2: Tell your Dan. 

Moderator 1: Can't believe the plasterer came to my mind first. 

Moderator 2: Thanks to Al Finney for doing our cover artwork and to Timmy Bentley for our theme music. If you want to get in touch with us, and why would you? But, if you do, we're on Twitter @museummeg and @saralmerritt, but you can also tweet us @LeedsMuseums. Transcript's on the website and we'll see you next time, I guess, have a good one. 

Moderator 1: Yes, was good, great, enjoyed it. 

Moderator 2: Doesn't sound like you did. 

Moderator 1: I know, I didn't say it. It's because I was going to say, 'Enjoy,' and then I was like, 'That doesn't make any sense, there's nothing more to enjoy.' But, maybe just enjoy the rest of your day. 

Moderator 2: Yes, have a cracker.